Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Bad concrete is the reason for Crumbling highway bridges Previous Next
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Sg9018
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Username: Sg9018

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 6:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to the Detroit News and WJBK Fox 2 News poor concrete is the reason for bridges problems. MDOT say that 10% of all Michigan's bridges may use the same poor concrete.
Each bridge repair cost $500,000. If all the vulnerable bridges were repaired the total cost will be $650 million.
WJBK FOX 2 link
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/my fox/pages/Home/Detail?contentI d=2824629&version=2&locale=EN- US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1. 1
Detroit News link
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070402/M ETRO/704020376

(Message edited by sg9018 on April 02, 2007)
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2942
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 6:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That lousy concrete was using that good old Zug Island and Dearborn slag.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 731
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 7:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The state gets what it pays for no doubt.
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 601
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 7:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I figured MDOT just bought Quikrete from Home Depot like everybody else.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 525
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 7:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard the story on WDIV or WXYZ also.

I thought so too Rhymeswithrawk.
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 182
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 7:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is an example of a typical Detroit overpass:
http://i148.photobucket.com/al bums/s22/bulletmagnet69/kodakg roup032607125.jpg?t=1175556951
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 1810
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 8:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

"We usually stay on top of things, but there are some things that don't act as predicted and they get away from us," he said. "This one didn't telegraph a signal to us that it was going to do this."

That sounds like a bad approach to an engineering problem. Things aren't supposed to act as predicted. You're supposed to predict how they'll act. Maybe they should design something into the structure that will telegraph that signal.
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Gtat44
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Username: Gtat44

Post Number: 99
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 7:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Remember when they had to re-do 94 at 75 because of sub par materials?
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Dnvn522
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Username: Dnvn522

Post Number: 226
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 7:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh boy...there's more than a couple of things in that News article that are either completely wrong or misleading.
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Club_boss
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Username: Club_boss

Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 8:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seems like that was the reason 275 was tore up and re-done.
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56packman
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Username: 56packman

Post Number: 1185
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 8:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What were the engineers thinking back then?

Were they thinking? This is the same era where they put up all of those steel-trussed bridges and did not paint or coat the steel--the story I heard (which was probably BS) was that the engineering firm was from Texas and their attitude was "it will get a coat of surface rust and stop there and everything will be fine"
years later the state is paying Atslantis bros. huge $$$$ to sandblast and paint those trusses baby blue.
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Udmphikapbob
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Username: Udmphikapbob

Post Number: 300
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 8:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

we should probably cut taxes and cut all the wasteful spending on road repairs...

ah, crap...this can't be my 300th post. i was hoping for something more meaningful. oh well, there's always #400.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 68
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 8:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wasteful spending on road repairs? have you been on the roads lately? In reality there should be MORE money invested in road repair...not less.
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2519
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 8:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was thinking about suspending the prevailing wage laws and start getting someone who can negotiate a good road guarantee, would be a better place to start.

Of course, that's after we can get someone to recreate the concrete formula used on the Davidson back in '41.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 69
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 9:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have heard that one of the problems with concrete right now is that modern concrete uses smaller aggregates than older mixtures and that there is less hard substance for the mix to bond to, thus lessening the durability of the concrete.
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Udmphikapbob
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Username: Udmphikapbob

Post Number: 301
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 10:18 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jimbo, check your sarcasm filter - it seems that it may not be working.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2288
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 10:23 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is simply bad engineering practice. Why use an experimental material, let alone on a framed, elevated structure such as a bridge? This is why researchers spend time in the lab testing materials--so idiot engineers don't have to do so in the field, with disastrous results.
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Defendbrooklyn
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Username: Defendbrooklyn

Post Number: 99
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 10:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michigan is that dumb...Are we the only state in the union with such terrible leadership across the board? Welcome to Michissippi boys...
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 1567
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 11:57 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

response to the article from my father the civil engineer:

quote:

I remember the slag being promoted and did use it in a sewage plant, but only in the asphalt. Someone back then was really pushing it, perhaps just to get rid of it. I still see it here being used for crushed stone farm roads.

Lots of bad concrete has been used. Remember seeing all the Thruway bridges in NY being repaired? Bad choices back in the 50's to not use air-entrained concrete, and also using salt for ice control without corrosion protection for the reinforcing steel.

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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 928
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

M-DOT annual reports from the seventies do state the theory of the "pre-rusted" bridges not needing painting. The repairs on the Lodge bridges from the fifties stem from different (concrete) problems. I suspect that if salt hadn't been used, they'd be in a lot better shape today. Also, if the concrete had been sealed (like what they're getting now-- notice the gray seal/paint on repaired bridges) they would have lasted longer.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 1568
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that "pre-rusting" is from cor-ten steel is it not?
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Unclefrank
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Username: Unclefrank

Post Number: 56
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does the Mafia still control cement here?
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Dnvn522
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Username: Dnvn522

Post Number: 227
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

that "pre-rusting" is from cor-ten steel is it not?

Cor-ten is one of the brand names for the material. There is a few different steel types that act in this manner and they weren't only used in Michigan. The most common type used on Michigan bridges was A588 steel from the late '60s through the early '70s. Some of them that do not see much salt are still in relatively good condition. Most deteriorated quickly and either were replaced or painted.
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Mercman
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Username: Mercman

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 2:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:
"It's unclear why the state experimented with the aggregate concrete. Smith and Collins said it's more expensive than other concretes. Smith said the aggregate was one of three types approved by the state following a battery of tests. It was discontinued because it caused potholes and crumbling decks."

Costs more and doesn't work as well...Hmmm.
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Rampartstreetnorth
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Username: Rampartstreetnorth

Post Number: 42
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 3:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Romans got it right. Some Roman structures built of concrete are still standing after nearly 2,000 years, and in spite of not using steel or iron reinforcing rods.

http://www.djc.com/news/co/111 33038.html
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2297
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The Romans got it right. Some Roman structures built of concrete are still standing after nearly 2,000 years, and in spite of not using steel or iron reinforcing rods.



The Romans also used different design approaches, though. Typically, their structures were supported primarily in compression (think arches), thus tensile capacity was a nonfactor. Even where beam elements spanned between two supports, such as at the porticos, the spans were short enough where shear--not flexure--was the governing failure mode.
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1425
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michigan did a lot of experimenting with road construction in the boon days of old. During those times we were on the cutting edge of highway engineering, thanks in part to having a lot of the prototype highways since we were the area that put the world on wheels. We had money to burn then and they did a lot of experimenting with different highway designs and materials. 275 and 696 east of 75 were examples of this. They tried experimental techniques that lead to big cracks in the concrete, which is why they were so bad for some many years. There was not a lot of long term planning going on, and they figured we would always have the money to fix it if it did not work. Well, the rest of the world learned from our highway designs how to make them better, which is why we have those dangerously small acceleration and deceleration ramps on 94. Now our state is no longer on the cutting edge of anything and we do not have money even take care of what we have. How far the mighty have fallen.
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 929
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 7:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The pre-rusted steel was used into the late '70s on I-475 bridges in Flint. I believe they're still unpainted
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Dnvn522
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Username: Dnvn522

Post Number: 228
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 10:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're correct. That was the last corridor done with the weathering steel, in '76 and '77.
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 73
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 11:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Romans didn't have 82 tons of semi truck driving over their roads 13,000 times a day.

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