Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 DIA = "art gallery" ? Previous Next
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1969
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

maybe I'm being oversensitive, but calling the DIA an art gallery seems a little dismissive, or shows ignorance

http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin e/us/AP-Van-Gogh-Detroit.html

nice to know the Van Gogh is staying, though
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4033
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I don't understand is why the frivolous lawsuit? The painting was after all SOLD, and not Nazi plunder.

All I can say is that painting will probably NEVER be loaned out again (at least not outside the country), just in case the laws of other countries contradict Michigan law.
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 1054
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe I am wrong, but if they SOLD the painting... how can they say it is still theirs?
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Queensfinest
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Username: Queensfinest

Post Number: 71
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A gallery is a space for the exhibition of art. Museums are in fact galleries by definition.

One of the top museums in the world, England's Tate, bills itself as the "National Gallery of British Art."

The Tate Modern is a good one to check out too. It's in London, England. According to the website they are "A major gallery of modern and contemporary art."

I'd say the DIA is a pretty decent gallery by most standards.
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Lilpup
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Post Number: 1970
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the argument in similar cases has been that the sale was made under duress - having to flee from the Nazis

QF: yeah I know, it's just that no one would call the MMOA an art gallery in a headline like that, would they? I looked around and some papers (e.g. Boston) had changed the headline to read 'Detroit Institute of Arts'

(Message edited by lilpup on April 03, 2007)
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Erikto
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Post Number: 538
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Art Gallery of Ontario is a well respected museum, as is the Albright-Knox Gallery in Buffalo.
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Lilpup
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Post Number: 1971
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

but those are their formal names, Erikto
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Eric
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Post Number: 748
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Must we always be look out for every perceived slight toward Detroit? For city that prides itself on toughness we sure have one hell of an inferiority complex
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Leland_palmer
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Username: Leland_palmer

Post Number: 273
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It calls it a "Detroit museum" in the first paragraph.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Username: Bob_cosgrove

Post Number: 500
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 2:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mrs. Nathan, living in Paris, sold the two paintings in question to a collection of art dealers in 1938.

She acted of her own free will, since this was some time before the September 1, 1939 German invasion of Poland or June 1940 Fall of France.

The Toledo Museum of Art purchased their painting in 1939 and the DIA's Adjunct Curator of Modern Art Robert Tannahill purchased his in 1941, which he donated to the DIA in 1961.

Obviously, Mrs. Nathan living in Paris in 1938 was not under direct Nazi duress. Even if family members still living in Germany were, she acted of her own free will.

So, while the Nathan's heirs suit was dimissed on a procedure basis, the heirs have no legitiment claim.

There's a very good documentary produced c.1997 "The Rape of Europa" about the Nazi's theft of European art from the countries they occupied. The films co-producer Robert M. Edsall spoke at the film's showing at the DIA's Detroit Film Theater at the Thursday evening showing only, that was about 2 weeks ago.

Mr. Edsall has recently authored an excellent and comprehensive book titled "Rescuing DaVinci" about the Nazi theft of art. It's available in the DIA gift shop or at Detroit book sellers such as Borders for about $58.

Bob Cosgrove
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Gistok
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Post Number: 4040
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 3:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For all the horrors that the Nazi's did during WWII, they did take good care of Germany's as well as plundered art. Very little of Germany's "removable" artwork was lost in World War II.

However, a lot was lost in transit, such as Russia's fabulous Amber Room from a St. Petersburg palace. It probably sits somewhere at the bottom of the Baltic Sea, after the ship carrying it was sunk by allied torpedos.

The worst disaster of paintings in WWII (in fact since a fire in Madrid in 1734)... was caused by Russians after they occupied Berlin. The Flakturm fire of 1945 destroyed 417 master paintings.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Username: Bob_cosgrove

Post Number: 501
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 3:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok,

I'm just curious, what does Flakturm mean. Or should it be Flaksturm, which would mean anti-aircraft artillery storm or fire?

Bob Cosgrove
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4045
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob, I was going from memory... so I looked it up in "THE LOST MUSEUM, Glimpses of Vanished Originals", by Robert Adams (1980).

He calls it "Flakturm Friedrichshain", and yes it is an armored structure housing anti-aircraft batteries. Whether or not the author has incorrect spelling or not, I don't know?
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Bob_cosgrove
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Post Number: 502
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Gistok, if I get a chance I'll look it up in my German dictionary.

Bob Cosgrove
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2424
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

maybe I'm being oversensitive, but calling the DIA an art gallery seems a little dismissive, or shows ignorance


I wouldn't worry about it. The DIA has been called much worse than a "gallery".
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Mdoyle
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Username: Mdoyle

Post Number: 49
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, In all actuality the Germans during WWI and WWII billed all artwork that was not seen as "Nationalist" or academy trained as degenerate art and much of it was auctioned off or destroyed. Many Expressionist works were lost forever. The DIA made one of the largest purchases of "degenerate" art during WWI from an auction.

(Message edited by mdoyle on April 03, 2007)
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Detroitbill
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Username: Detroitbill

Post Number: 197
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just wanted to mention that its a pleasure to read and learn info on a thread like this with the above participants compared to some of the bizarre topics and use of profanities and language lately on some of the others. Quite a contrast in the level of intelligence shown .
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4049
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are correct, Mdoyle... that's to our benefit today!

I was watching a PBS show a month ago about how Afganistani art curators saved most of their paintings during the Taliban era from destruction. They painted over objectionable areas of the paintings with water based paints. The extra paint was later removed when the Taliban fell.

Unfortunately they couldn't save sculpture or those giant 1,000 year old Budda's.
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 345
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 5:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of my favorite pieces in the entire Detroit Institute of Arts, a self portrait of Otto Dix, was purchased at a degenerate art auction in Germany.
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Mackcreative
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Username: Mackcreative

Post Number: 53
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 5:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WDET referred to the DIA as "Detroit's main art gallery" when discussing this story today too, I'm guessing that's what's written in a press release.
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Queensfinest
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Username: Queensfinest

Post Number: 73
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 5:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

See my post above, 4th from the start. It's a gallery. Look it up in a dictionary. What's the big deal? The Times didn't call it a dump. They didn't criticize the gallery, oops, the museum.

There seems to be a sort of contagious complex among a lot of Detroiters about how outsiders view the city and its residents, exemplified by topics on this forum.

I'm willing to bet that virtually nobody who read that article anywhere else in the country got a negative impression of Detroit from it. Maybe try not to be so self conscious.
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Mackcreative
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Username: Mackcreative

Post Number: 54
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Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 8:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Queensfinest: see my post right above yours--my point was that LOCAL media were calling it a gallery as well; not disparaging to Detroit, just a strange choice of words. By the way an art museum is comprised of multiple galleries, the way a university is multiple colleges.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1973
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 8:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think if I were Graham Beal I'd find it disparaging that the national press feel the name Detroit Institute of Arts doesn't stand on its own.

(Message edited by lilpup on April 03, 2007)
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Aiw
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Username: Aiw

Post Number: 6229
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 10:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andy, I agree, that self portrait is outstanding.

It was either at the Musee D'Orsay in Paris or the Tate Modern in London a few years ago, that I had the chance to walk through an exhibition of Nazi-era "degenerate art". There were some great works there.
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 346
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 10:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i don't necessarily take offense, but I do believe there is a difference major between museums and galleries... dictionary.com agrees with me.

one type sells works, the other displays and cultures.

"Gallery"
room, series of rooms, or building devoted to the exhibition and often the ****SALE OF WORKS OF ART.****

"Museum"
A building, place, or institution devoted to the acquisition, conservation, study, exhibition, and educational interpretation of objects having scientific, historical, or artistic value.

This follows exactly with the claims of institutions in our community:

MOCAD, DIA:
exhibit art works, NEVER offering them for sale... these institutions are museums... NOT galleries...

HILBERRY, 555, C-POP, CAID:
frequently / consistently offer their pieces for sale... THESE are galleries...

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