  Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 25 Registered: 04-2007 |
How would you feel about a mall downtown near the riverfront? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11450 Registered: 10-2003 |
A mall downtown would be a wonderful thing, as long as it was implemented correctly. Take a looke at Circle Centre mall in Indy as an example of a mall that was truly implemented into a downtown environment. The mall was always packed with people, truly an anchor for downtown Indy. The mall reutilized existing buildings and built multi-level catwalks made of glass to connect the buildings. http://www.indy.org/indianapol is/web/jsp/whattodo/detail.jsp ?c=7013237:circlecentre:showhi de&p=1&x=1175694800280 | ||
Innercitydoc Member Username: Innercitydoc Post Number: 30 Registered: 09-2006 |
Also take a look at St. Louis Centre a colossal failure of a downtown mall. More likely than not Detroit would go down this same path. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 26 Registered: 04-2007 |
My plan, if I had the money and the backing, would put the mall actually on the riverfront with the ability to park your river craft. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1572 Registered: 05-2005 |
you could even build it on the hudson's site! | ||
Skulker Member Username: Skulker Post Number: 3745 Registered: 10-2003 |
Great! Big windowless retail center with gobs of parking right where we could build some high value housing! And a boat slip to use five months out of the year because lots of people drive to the marina, start up their incredibly fuel inefficient boat, drive it to the mall and then drive back to the marina and reload everything back into their car! Wow thats just the icing on the cake! DumfuckistanYes.com | ||
Yooper Member Username: Yooper Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2006 |
This sounds like a great idea! I would imagine with all of the momentum downtown, most of the stores at Somerset would want to move to the new mall. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 2022 Registered: 11-2004 |
I think maybe they should build a mall on Belle Isle, but it would be like a Mall of America with a rollercoaster and amusement park stuff inside. If there isn't enough parking on the island, there is plenty of available land just off the bridge and people could easily take shuttles to the mall. The shuttles could be really pimped out booze busses or something like that. It'd be awesome. | ||
Schulzte1 Member Username: Schulzte1 Post Number: 67 Registered: 01-2007 |
A lot of cities have downtown malls, they are integrated into existing building or built to look that way, not just plunking down a suburban mall downtown. Denver has a really nice downtown shopping center which is like that. Hopefully Detroit can pull something like that off in the next few years. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 27 Registered: 04-2007 |
Sure, Skulker, let's instead, take our "fuel efficient" SUV's to any mall past 8 Mile spend a high amount of money in the suburbs instead of in the city! Gee that sounds like the way it should be, huh? | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 2024 Registered: 11-2004 |
Well, it sounds like the way it *is* if nothing else. And it does illustrate some of the potential flaws in your plan. The Belle Isle plan is way better. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11451 Registered: 10-2003 |
Skulker, I would argue that Indy has either about the same, or even perhaps LESS parking than downtown Detroit. They did however implement it into buildings much better than Detroit so the their monsterous parking garages are more well hid, with more retail on the ground level floors than Detroit. In addition, as I said above, they reused mostly existing buildings. Buildings which in turn had some windows in. Now perhaps there aren't as many windows as an office building may have, but to label Circle Centre mall as a windowless retail centre is more than a stretch. Whether or not a mall would survive here, I can't say. From frequenting downtown Indy multiple times a week, I'd estimate that Detroit's downtown population is likely much higher than Indy's. The difference between the two cities is that downtown Indy is more of a regional destination for people in the area. Downtown Indy is THE place to be, where as up here, we have so many self sufficient sufficient suburbs with monster malls already, trying to attract customers to downtown may be difficult. As for where to locate it? I don't know. I do feel that the Shoppes at Riverfront in the RenCen are a good example of how a downtown mall can be created in the heart of downtown, not be a windowless retail center, and implemented well. That being said, there are still many vacancies in the RenCen that haven't been filled, so why build more retail that would either created the same situation, likely draining business from the RenCen shoppes? Personally, I don't believe downtown is probably quite ready for a mall. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 28 Registered: 04-2007 |
What flaws, Dialh4hipster? | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1573 Registered: 05-2005 |
quote: i dunno, i like the plan of incorporating belle isle into its own township and developing the bejesus out of it with mcmansions and marinas....'course, that's assuming the island stays under US control. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1179 Registered: 02-2004 |
The Belle Isle Mall would only work if we shut down freighter traffic on the river and built a new bridge to Windsor. All of the stores would need to agree to accept both US and Canadian currency. Since it would be a join US/Canadian venture, OPP would need to provide security. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 29 Registered: 04-2007 |
I think the intrigue, Supersport, would be high gas prices and people willing to spend in the city. Malls in the suburbs are starting to get quite a few vacancies themselves. I'm just saying that you give the mall downtown something no other mall in the area can give you. One is riverfront scenery. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1574 Registered: 05-2005 |
screw another bridge, why don't we just fill in the river with all the crappy bridge cement? | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 2025 Registered: 11-2004 |
Those are good points Crew and totally do-able. We could also run auto ferries from the Windsor side. It really feels like this idea is coming together as the pre-eminent mall concept for Detroit. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 191 Registered: 10-2006 |
Wasn't the original plan of Trappers Alley focused around shopping and a mall-type atmosphere? | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 30 Registered: 04-2007 |
That mall on Belle Isle IS a good idea, but I would suggest building another bridge from the mainland. | ||
Club_boss Member Username: Club_boss Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2006 |
"Whether or not a mall would survive here, I can't say. From frequenting downtown Indy multiple times a week, I'd estimate that Detroit's downtown population is likely much higher than Indy's. The difference between the two cities is that downtown Indy is more of a regional destination for people in the area. Downtown Indy is THE place to be, where as up here, we have so many self sufficient sufficient suburbs with monster malls already, trying to attract customers to downtown may be difficult." I would agree w/ this above post. In Indy everything is downtown, Conseco Fieldhouse, the circle city mall, Lucas Oil Stadium (08), hotels, the cities finest restaurants. And it's all within walking distance. I think a mall in downtown Detroit is worth a try. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8817 Registered: 10-2003 |
We could have places like the Roostertail run water shuttles to the mall. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1180 Registered: 02-2004 |
Ferries are an awesome idea for a mall! What other mall in the country offers auto ferries? This would be North America's first truely international mall. Do you think the Boblo Boats could be converted into auto ferries? "Belle Isle International Mall Emporium" | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 2026 Registered: 11-2004 |
What stores does everyone think we should have at the Belle Isle Internation Mall Emporium?? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1181 Registered: 02-2004 |
Canadian Tire Merry-Go-Round | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 349 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Eaton Center in Toronto is another example of a nice city mall. Of course, the Eaton Center has the benefit of being fully integrated into the city's subway system too. But you could definitely not call it a "Big windowless retail center with gobs of parking" as Skulker assumes any Mall would have to be. The only downside to a mall downtown I could see is if it detracted from foot traffic elsewhere. I wouldn't want it to become a little sanctuary for people so they don't have to walk through other areas of downtown. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 520 Registered: 07-2004 |
Remember that Circle Center Mall in Indy has stores that can only be found in that mall in the entire Metro Indy area, like Nordstroms. A downtown mall would have to be unique to attract people. Or it has to offer the best selection in the region, like Circle Center does. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 31 Registered: 04-2007 |
Good job Crew, now we are getting somewhere! Stores should be placed for the 18 - 35 old group. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1575 Registered: 05-2005 |
spencer's gifts, the emorium needs a spencer's gifts! | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 542 Registered: 02-2007 |
This question was asked 2-3 Months ago. The people on here gave that person the flux. (Message edited by Urbanize on April 04, 2007) | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1183 Registered: 02-2004 |
Any store that carries "I'm so bad I vacation in Detroit" t-shirts would do well. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1190 Registered: 12-2005 |
Dollar castle Dollar Emporium Foot Locker Wigs n' Nails Beauty supply superstore the Leftorium Dollar Daze the Family reunion custom printed T-shirt superstore Liquor-Lotto-Deli Advance check cashing RAC-rent-to-own about seven coney islands Rim/tire rent-to-own ultra store Security grates and more! and: how about mall-storefront churches? | ||
Chow Member Username: Chow Post Number: 364 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sweet Jesus what the hell happened to this site. Lowell should introduce an 'ignore' option so I don't have to see all of these ridiculous hypothetical 'what if Detroit had this...' or 'Detroit should do this...' threads. What a waste of a forum that used to be a wonderful place to gain information and get an early jump on the next big development announcement. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1576 Registered: 05-2005 |
cell phone accessory kiosks as far as the eye can see! | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 543 Registered: 02-2007 |
DONT FORGET THE WAL-MART! Everyone shops at Wal-Mart. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1577 Registered: 05-2005 |
oh, and magic eye poster kiosks, can't forget those! "you dumb bastard, its a not a schooner, its a sailboat!" | ||
Oliverdouglas Member Username: Oliverdouglas Post Number: 79 Registered: 02-2006 |
Copley Center in Boston incorporates old and new buildings, hotels, retail, entertainment, exhibit space - even a church. I really enjoyed it, and it didn't stop me from exploring the rest of downtown and Back Bay. Of course Detroit is not Boston. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9342 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dumbfuckistanyes.com! I love it! It sounds like the former dictator Turkmenbashi who was known for his idiotic ideas. Belle Isle as a mall...fucking hilarious! | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1185 Registered: 02-2004 |
Goat, Not just "a mall" it would be an "International Emporium" geesh | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1081 Registered: 10-2003 |
no. take a look at what the ren cen did to downtown retail when it was built. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 930 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dialh4hipster wrote, "It really feels like this idea is coming together as the pre-eminent mall concept for Detroit." Just because some people on a message board are making pie in the sky wishes, you think it's going to come true? | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11452 Registered: 10-2003 |
Am I the only one that realizes that DialH4Hipester was being sarcastic? Seriously, a mall on Belle Isle? Skulker's dumbfukistan card seems well played in this instance. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8818 Registered: 10-2003 |
Did you not realize that almost all of us were being sarcastic as well? | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 1293 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: No. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 32 Registered: 04-2007 |
Okay, everybody has a negative idea about what to put downtown/Belle Isle. So what if past ventures have failed...so what if a new one does, if no one tries, nothing can be accomplished. What do you want to do, sit here and IM all day at what could be...or put words to action? Cracking on folks ideas in the forum is stupid considering those same people haven't come up with and implemented their own ideas. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8819 Registered: 10-2003 |
Belle Isle is fine as a park. Some clean up and infrastructure improvements are all that is needed. The River front is in the process of seeing development and a mall doesn't make sense on an international border since it cuts off traffic from one direction. You are cutting half the potential population in a given radius. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1186 Registered: 02-2004 |
Jtl, OK thanks. nevermind then. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 33 Registered: 04-2007 |
The ferry route seems to be good from the Canadian side, since it would be illogical to build a bridge due to the shipping lane. There is already a Coast Guard base on the island, so safety of the ferry/shipping lanes is already determined. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 326 Registered: 08-2006 |
Since were all millionaires if we pool our money together we can make this a reality! | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 794 Registered: 09-2005 |
A mall on Belle Isle is not going to happen. That being said, prior to the imploding of the Hudson's building, was there any realistic proposals to convert that building into something similar to a mall? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 585 Registered: 04-2006 |
Copley Center is connected to the Hynes Center... I guess you could connect a Detroit mall to the fabled new Cobo... But malls are so 1994. Detroit needs a shopping district. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 549 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Since were all millionaires if we pool our money together we can make this a reality!" YOU can do that. We'll just sit back and watch. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 550 Registered: 02-2007 |
Malls are SO 1970s and 1980s. Outdoor Malls was SO 90s. Now it's the Shopping Districts like Chicago's Magnificant Mile. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2523 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ah yes, the brilliance of the newbies continues. Dumbfuckistanyes indeed! Let's take valuable land that has just been returned from industrial uses and turn it into a mall. Last time I looked malls didn't have windows and required huge parking lots. Just the thing to replace the large factories that had no windows and large parking lots. How about creating neighborhoods for people to live in on the water? Last time I looked people were willing to pay large premiums to get waterfront views. Maybe if you'd read more of the forum instead of posting really stupid ideas you would realize some of the people here are doing things instead of just spinning up really idiotic ideas. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 34 Registered: 04-2007 |
These are thoughts, dude, get a grip. Island traffic shouldn't be too bad and parking shouldn't be a problem if you put a stacked garage next to the mall. Upgrade the police station on the island and add a fire station. Have mini clinics also with the police/fire setup. You'll have plenty of safety. Something people look for when going out into the city. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 35 Registered: 04-2007 |
Ndavies, what is your brilliant plan, burn the city down, start from scratch? | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 327 Registered: 08-2006 |
What if people want to swim to Belle Isle? What do we do then? Can we accomodate them as well? | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 36 Registered: 04-2007 |
Stecks77...give it up. Don't be silly and idiotic at the same time. | ||
Club_boss Member Username: Club_boss Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2006 |
The parking for Circle City mall is all underground. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2524 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have a grip. It's clear that you don't. You and Detblue are in some delusional little world. What do you have against parkland? Why are you trying to turn some of the best park land in the country into something other than a public park? Belle Isle is performing it's function perfectly. Sure it could use a little help. A good cleaning and some upgrades. Instead of trying to turn it into something else why don't you volunteer to help clean it up? The friends of Belle Isle will be doing it shortly. Why not do something useful for a change. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5739 Registered: 02-2004 |
A mall in Detroit is BAD IDEAL! Not only it would suck every last Downtown Detroit businesses dry, but also not going to be to generate any more fancy businesses. The last mall was a DOOMED TO FAILURE is the Tower Center Mall in side the former Montgomery Ward's building on the corner of Grand River Ave. and Greenfield St. Other suburban Malls are DOOMED TO FAILURE are being beat out is LIVONIA MALL, UNIVERSAL MALL, WONDERLAND MALL, FOUNTAIN WALK AND TEL-TWELVE MALL. Also the newly remodeled indoor mini mall inside the REN CEN is not getting enough customers due to their busy work period. Most kids and teens don't even go there. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 37 Registered: 04-2007 |
Belle Isle is pretty big, underground parking wouldn't be a necessity. Good idea, though. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 328 Registered: 08-2006 |
I would propose an underwater walking tunnel to Belle Isle since traffic will be busy on the bridge. Maybe the tunnel could even have windows so patrons could see the beautiful underwater views of the Detroit River. It could be the new aquarium! I think I'm on to something? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 932 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ndavies wrote, "...the large factories that had no windows and large parking lots." Modern factories hardly have any windows. But the old factories that were torn down in Detroit almost all had tons of windows-- much more than any mall. Many didn't have much in the way of parking lots, either, since lots of workers walked or rode the streetcar to them. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 38 Registered: 04-2007 |
I'm already part of that organization and part of Detroiter's at Heart. I've given suggestions to city counsil about getting things restored to the way Belle Isle used to be. Deaf ears. If you are so concerned about the park, why don't we all get together and come up with that solution? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 586 Registered: 04-2006 |
Isn't there already a tunnel to Belle Isle? | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 229 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: Maybe instead of dumfuckistanYES.com it should be sarcasticstanYES.com | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 39 Registered: 04-2007 |
Used to be. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 40 Registered: 04-2007 |
My bad, no there wasn't, I'm thinking of the tunnel that used to under Jefferson. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 329 Registered: 08-2006 |
Bsarndt: its "I'm bad," not "My bad" | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 41 Registered: 04-2007 |
Not up on the lingo, Stecks? It's "my bad." Or is that another attempt at bad sarcasm? | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 330 Registered: 08-2006 |
I'm just trying to encourage you to sound more intelligent. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 43 Registered: 04-2007 |
If that's the case, you are not the one that should be correcting everyone else. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2299 Registered: 10-2003 |
Just by reading the posts on this thread, it's clear that James Howard Kunstler was correct. We have truly forgotten how to build urban places in this country. A mall in a downtown? Welcome to 1985! The whole way in which this question is posed is preposterous. A retail solution for Detroit goes way beyond "a mall or nothing". Unique? When was the last time you went into a mall that didn't have the same shit and sterile PRIVATELY-owned environment that every other mall has? "Shopping districts" aren't any better, because the term alone reeks of pretentious overplanning and artificial intrusions into the market. Some of you folks are trying to run a marathon before you can even walk. I'm with Skulker on this one. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3764 Registered: 10-2003 |
Bsarndt, even if there wer the tiniest flicker of possibility of having a mall or any other commercial development on Belle Isle, which there is none, no developer would want to invest in what is essentially a dead street. Ditto for the riverfront. And if Belle Isle were ever sold off in whole or part, the values for residential development would be far more attractive. If you were to posit some more realistic options, like siting a mall or amusement park near the corner of an expressway interchange where it could attract customers from the broader region, you could avoid some of the sarcasm and derision that your proposals beg. For the immediate downtown that seems to be limited to the Lodge / I-75 / I-96 area with the Tiger stadium and land to the north being the most tempting. If the Red Wings left Joe Louis, that might be a possibility as it has parking, access and even a People Mover stop. The area east of Eastern Market has some possibility. But even those options are fraught with difficulties. Personally I think a large mall would be counter productive to the development of downtown retail. If anything scattered small strip malls ala the Harbortown Market and Lafayette Park would better serve demand and add to neighborhood vibrancy. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 44 Registered: 04-2007 |
But for everyone making a federal case of this particular question, I don't see anybody coming up with a better solution, just bashing the ones with the idea. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 45 Registered: 04-2007 |
Ok, Lowell, I based my question on a "better solution" theory. So even if my idea seems far fetched, I would like to know what would be some ideas to revitalize downtown. | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1060 Registered: 09-2004 |
I've always had an idea to put an Observatory in Detroit. It would lead to the sort of 21st Century Jobs that we need. I thought it might go well on the Hudsons site, but maybe that site is better suited for Nissan's Headquarters. Maybe the Observatory could go on Belle Isle attached to the proposed mall. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 623 Registered: 11-2005 |
Schitt yeah! Build that schitt up! | ||
Club_boss Member Username: Club_boss Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2006 |
Not Every Idea Pans Out… Back I the day there was this idea floated to turn the old Union Station in downtown Indy into a “Festival Marketplace.” It supposedly was the perfect location. Money was poured into the project with both hands. Something around 100 or 200 million dollars. Planning was second to none. The planners figured that Union Station would attract people within a 300-mile radius; that would include Chicago and Detroit. "It would busy every night, we're going to popping champagne every night." There was a Holiday Inn hotel, using Pullman Cars, still on the tracks, which are (to this day) sold as suites. The “Grand Hall” where I worked was a beautiful Romanesque style building, more like a work of art. April of 1986 was the grand opening. I want to say 70 plus restaurants were up @ trackside, 3 or 4 nightclubs, plus on the main level was an assortment of what I will call quirky shops, for example a left hander shop, a store for left handed people. There was no “anchor store.” The first 90 days were a blur, after that business started to fall off. The restaurant I worked in (which I had invested just about every dime I had) closed @ 90 days. Slowly each and every business closed or changed hands until it was obvious that Union Station was doomed (like the video game) It struggled through what was left of the 80’s; some blamed the Circle Center mall for it’s eventual demise, however it was dead (dieing) way before the mall came into the picture. So this 800-pound gorilla sits empty, for the most part, the holiday Inn (Crown Plaza) is still open and there are a half dozen or so “tenants,” (I use that term loosely) including, Bands of America, Consulate of Mexico, Indiana Museum of African American History, Japan-America Society of America, the Pacers academy and one lone restaurant. They tried and failed, so did I, but we did try. Even the best laid plans don't work out as planned. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2525 Registered: 10-2003 |
Great, put an observatory in a city with one of the worst light pollution problems because of the sprawl, happens to be in one of the cloudiest states in the country and has an altitude of a mere 600 feet. Yeah that's going to be a really successful venture. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 46 Registered: 04-2007 |
I'm sorry to hear that, Club_boss, I feel for you. That must have been rough. And you are correct, that sometimes plans don't work out. But sometimes plans DO work out. But giving up (and I hope you haven't) isn't the solution. "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." I know that maybe easy for me to say, because I haven't invested in a lot of worthwhile things...yet. But I believe, and that's what counts. Hope your dreams weren't entirely dashed. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2208 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Every once in a while you are pretty funny. Well twice. The first observatory post. And now this one. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2526 Registered: 10-2003 |
Bsarndt, even though we think your idea is really stupid doesn't mean any of us have given up. We're just putting our efforts into things that can be and are successful. If you'd read the forum, you'd see the things other forumers have accomplished. These include starting new businesses, developing new neighborhoods, starting interesting events and rehabilitating downtown buildings. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4063 Registered: 08-2004 |
The reason for the skepticism on the mall idea is that a newbie comes up with this same idea every 3 or 4 months. You go back... you will find years worth of newbie inspired mall threads for downtown. Maybe we should start a NEWBIE WARNING LIST of things that have been discussed Ad Nauseum here on this forum... over and over again... 1) Mall downtown. 2) Any use for Belle Isle besides as a park. 3) Super tall skyscrapers downtown. 4) Turning the Michigan Central Depot into a Casino or convention center/hotel. 5) Places to put a new hockey arena. 6) Moving Cobo instead of expansion at current site. 7) Expanding People Mover to New Center. 8) A Detroit Subway System. 9) A new Quicken Headquarters on Grand Circus Park. 10)A tall skyscraper for the Hudson site. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 775 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote:Why should the rich people get to live by the water? The new projects being developed by Dave Bing and Dwight Belyue should be given to people who need affordable housing so they have a nice place to live too. And the rest of the buildings between E. Jefferson and the river should all be demolished and the city should plant grass. That way the people who are driving in their cars on E. Jefferson can see the pretty water. People in cars deserve nice views. Also, Detroiters can then sit on the grass near the water. Why hasn't this been done yet? Swingline Age 9 P.S. A downtown mall with the traditional anchor tenants, etc. is a non-starter unless about 50,000 households with bachelor degrees and six figure incomes are beamed into a five mile radius of the area from Mars in the next year or so. | ||
Drankin21 Member Username: Drankin21 Post Number: 82 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cheesecake Factory | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 47 Registered: 04-2007 |
And what might that be, Ndavies? What efforts have you made successful? There are no stupid ideas - just stupid people who call other peoples ideas stupid. First and foremost, I wasn't referring to the forum as a whole, I was referring to Boss. I know people have accomplished many things in this city, on this forum - that's the point I'm making. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2209 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: No. There are indeed stupid ideas. Some very, very stupid ideas. And this is clearly near the top of the list. | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1061 Registered: 09-2004 |
Yeah Ndavies! If the observatory is such a stupid idea what have you done? | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2211 Registered: 06-2004 |
Ok. Now it is three Sharmaal. Just stop it. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2528 Registered: 10-2003 |
Other than the big jumbo ass check I need to write in the next couple of months, Obviously nothing lately.  | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 555 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Cheesecake Factory" Got that right. Can't wait til they open inside the Book. | ||
Jonnyfive Member Username: Jonnyfive Post Number: 57 Registered: 03-2007 |
"1) Mall downtown. 2) Any use for Belle Isle besides as a park. 3) Super tall skyscrapers downtown. 4) Turning the Michigan Central Depot into a Casino or convention center/hotel. 5) Places to put a new hockey arena. 6) Moving Cobo instead of expansion at current site. 7) Expanding People Mover to New Center. 8) A Detroit Subway System. 9) A new Quicken Headquarters on Grand Circus Park. 10)A tall skyscraper for the Hudson site." As a relative noob to posting on this site... Here's my take/what I've learned from your list: 1) Self sufficient mega-complexes are counterproductive to the development of a vibrant downtown. That being said, I think the Eaton Center (Or whatever its called) in Toronto is beautifully integrated into the city. 2)Bell Isle is a beautiful park that should remain a park. Other uses (theme park, mall) are dumb. 3)Can we fill out our 20 story abandoned buildings first? 4) Every new project apparently belongs in that building. 5) We'll probably find out when everybody else does. 6) Lets not spend millions to demolish more stuff and just fix what we have. 7) This just delays our inevitable need for something good with something really stupid. 8) shockingly expensive and unnecessary. 9) Wouldnt it be nice if we were older? then we wouldnt have to wait so long. 10) apparently its site capacity is not that tall unless a builder ripped out the underground structure and started over. Who cares.... Ten stories of occupied space would be a landmark development for downtown. Have I covered everything? | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 1285 Registered: 03-2006 |
put in an Abercrummie and Fitch and close the Scummerset one and the masses will come downtown | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 300 Registered: 04-2004 |
Hmm, would a mall downtown be a good idea. All you have to do is look at all the other cities in Michigan that have built downtown malls..all failures. As far as big city examples that are close by, you have the Water Tower Place and Chicago Place in Chicago. The Water Tower place is doing okay, but that's only because its along touristy Michigan Ave and people go there regardless. It's also a convenient place for Chicago's thousands of downtown residents to buy stuff without having to drive too far out to a suburban shopping mall. But Detroit doesn't have those residents. The Chicago Place is perhaps the biggest failure along Michigan Ave. Floors 4-7 are pretty much empty. The only real succesful thing is the food court on the top level where downtown workers can get a quick bite to eat. In Cincinnati, they have a shopping center attached to Carew Tower. The thing is, it has pretty much turned into one giant food court over the years, servicing downtown workers who get there by a series of skywalks. Stores? They are sort of RenCen style. Card shops, pseudo convenience store, gift shops, etc.. Oh and there is a TJ max, but that isn't saying a whole lot. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 48 Registered: 04-2007 |
Let me ask a question? If everyone, or "newbies" as you put it, come in here every 3 to 4 months and suggest malls, use for Belle Isle, etc., might you think that may be a growing mass in Detroit if it keeps getting mentioned? Hmm. | ||
Club_boss Member Username: Club_boss Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2006 |
There are valid points that have been raised in this thread, whether they have been discussed prior to this or not, it's still an interesting thread. I don’t believe simply because an idea or thought that has been raised in a previous thread, said subject is now off limits because the “newbie’s” (caps off) are having another discussion on a matter which has already been brought up. Typically there is money on the sidelines, waiting for that one good offer. Many of the concerns that have come up in this thread, while not expressed as diplomatically as they could have been, are valid points. My ventures today are restricted to established businesses | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1064 Registered: 09-2004 |
"9) Wouldnt it be nice if we were older? then we wouldnt have to wait so long." That's rich! I'd like to follow that with... Maybe if we think and wish and hope and pray it might come true | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 49 Registered: 04-2007 |
If retail was doing so well downtown, we would not need to talk about revitalization. Obviously retail isn't doing as well as people are making it. Most have left the city, and true that is due to the economy, I'll give you that. How about luring 21rst Century companies into downtown to help spawn economic growth. Maybe that's where we need to start. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2304 Registered: 10-2003 |
As opposed to 19th Century or 20th Century companies, of course. Screw the Robber Barons! | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 557 Registered: 02-2007 |
What do you think we've been trying to do all this time Detroit has existed as a major city. People choose to avoid Detroit. We can't help that. | ||
Bsarndt Member Username: Bsarndt Post Number: 50 Registered: 04-2007 |
What can we do to make Detroit a city to come to? This is what we as citizens need to investigate. Maybe that is the hardest thing to propose. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4069 Registered: 08-2004 |
You new folks do have many good ideas, and don't be discouraged by some of the negative responses that you often get on this forum. Maybe we've got some old timers that need to up their meds! I know I have! But don't let it disillusion you!! | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2165 Registered: 07-2004 |
Bsarndt, if you were more specific about where to put the mall, then perhaps you wouldn't get the backlash. Where are you suggesting that a mall on the riverfront go? I have a few locations in which I think a mall could go in Detroit. They depend on a lot of ifs, but if all the cards were lined up then it's possible. The first site would be at Cobo Hall. If a decision was made to build a new convention center elsewhere, then the vacant Cobo Hall would be a good place to put a downtown mall. No additional parking would be needed because Cobo has both roof-top and underground parking and enough square footage for many stores. The second site for a downtown mall would be on the Hudson's site. Clearly, it would have to be a vertical mall, but they have two or three in Chicago and they appear to work, at least Water Tower Place. Also, there is underground parking available at the site. Anothere site for a mall in Detroit, but not downtown, would be the current General Motors/Poletown plant. If GM ever vacated the building, that would be the perfect spot for a mall. The square footage and available parking would be ideal and it is near two major freeways, I-94 and I-75. Also, the location is essentially at the center of Detroit. Also, a mall in Detroit would have to have more one-of-a-kind stores, the kind you wouldn't find in the current suburban malls. If Detroit could convince a store like Dillard's or some other store not in the Detroit area, then that would be a plus. It would be equivalent to the situation that we have with the Hard Rock Cafe. Only one store in the entire Metro Detroit area. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 589 Registered: 04-2006 |
Manhattan Mall isn't doing too well either. Plus, all the major stores in there have other locations within a couple blocks. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 754 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: More like every newbie thinks they're first one think of the idea usually with no clue of what it takes to support a mall downtown. Maybe if you LISTENED you'd understand that that downtown malls fail more than they work and it's happened in cities with better downtowns than Detroit. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2306 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The much-ballyhooed Tower City in Cleveland isn't doing so hot, and the Galleria is even worse. I believe City Center in Columbus closed outright. Malls are outdated ideas that have outlived their usefulness. Even suburban malls are dying like wildfire. There is another thread today about a resurgence in St. Louis's downtown--check it out. DC has been very underretailed for some time--no thanks to Marion Barry's efforts to make downtown "offices only". We're finally starting to get some decent retailers in the CBD (and not just in Georgetown). Malls are the antithesis of urbanity--let 'em stay in the burbs! | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 313 Registered: 08-2006 |
No a mall would not be good a strong retail giant like hudsons or 2 would be a good thing for Detroit. I dont know if somebody already said that. I have a a teacher who says that in the early 80's hudsons said that for a good tax break they would reinvest and update their building but the city said NO! is this true? if that happened Hudsons or Macys would still be there. I barely remember the building and that is only as a vacant building I wish I could have experienced that store. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4301 Registered: 10-2003 |
Malls are windowless buildings with entirely indoor uses. Why would you waste scarce riverfront real estate on something that doesn't take advantage of, you know, the riverfront. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3765 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, Ndavies, what efforts have ~you~ made besides hazing the newbies? By that question being asked a certain unfamiliarity with forum is displayed. Part of the nature of forums is that new peoples join all the time and inevitably ask questions that have been discussed in depth in the past, often several times. You might not think that it would be the case, but that gets some veterans worked up and lead to ridicule. The result is either redux or exasperation, or a combination. Someday someone will write the masterpiece of the new emerging cyber-psychology of social networking and these reactions will all become clear. Who knows, maybe it will come down the repressed a repressed memory of someone having their favorite dog hit by car in his or her youth. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 776 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dan, is the Hecht's store still open in downtown DC? When it was built in the late 80's, it was the first new department store built in the CBD of a major US city in something like 25 years. Do any other department stores remain? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2309 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Yes, Hecht's at Metro Center is alive and well--as the DC area's flagship Macy's store. A couple years ago, they added six(?) stories of office space to the top of the four-story store. While the sale to Federated was going through, the store underwent a complete renovation. I have to say, I like the Macy's product mix a little bit better. The old Woodward and Lothrop (bounded by 10th, 11th, F, and G Streets) closed in 1999 or so, and bought by a developer. The building is nearing the end of its renovation, and currently holds offices and an H&M store. A West Elm store will open there in the summer, and Zara has committed to a second District location there. There were a couple other department stores on F Street--Garfinckel's, and I forget the other one. Both of them have retail (Borders, Banana Republic) and restaurants and the ground floor and offices up above. I suspect that part of the reason that Hecht's store is still there is precisely because of the new building. When the economy sucked (especially in the District) in the 1990s, the old building at 7th and F became an albatross. Downsizing to the newer building allowed them to reduce operating costs. That, and it doesn't hurt to have a direct entrance to your store from one of the busiest subway stations in the city. Ironically, former Mayor Williams approached Macy's about leasing the old Woodward and Lothrop building. They refused, citing their existing store at Pentagon City, just across the river in Arlington. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4302 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote:    | ||
Texorama Member Username: Texorama Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2006 |
Danindc is right. The most comparable situation would be the two malls in downtown Cleveland, and while they're not derelicts, they certainly aren't roaring successes; the mix of stores doesn't draw anyone down there who wasn't there already. Personally I think unique small retail ought to be helped along as much as possible. The irregular street layout, if it reached a certain critical mass of stores, would start to be seen as charming rather than frustrating--people would have the feeling of discovering something new around every corner. With the new condos going in west of Woodward, it could happen. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1822 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote:Although not a masterpiece, I found The Psychology of the Internet, by Patricia Wallace, very enlightening. I thought I read somewhere that commercial mall developers themselves no longer feel the mall concept works in today's market. Does anyone else remember that? I can't find the article. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2007 |
what follows is only one ma's opinion, so please be gentle. Only one thing brings a city to life. That is people living there. A mall that people drive to will do nothing to help the area, IMHO. To rejuvenate a neighborhood, people need to move into it. Gentrification is often considered an ugly word, but it does work wonders. I don't think Detroit has the wherewithal to entice enough people to move into town on its own. But in conjunction with the State and perhaps the feds, they could do it. It would be a HUGE commitment, and perhaps politically unpopular to offer incentives to new residents, when current residents can barely get services. But, in the Long run it would work. To be clear, Tax breaks are simply not enough to make it happen. But aggressive and innovative plans could. How about homesteading? yes Homesteading, as in you move in build a place AND STAY- and it's yours. How about NO TAXES for 20 years. And perhaps no utility charges. These sound extreme, but, to really make Detroit work may take desperate measures. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 522 Registered: 07-2004 |
I think we have to remember that a downtown is more then just shopping. Yes shopping is important in making streetlife, etc. But downtown is also about culture, commerce, etc. And in the culture department, Detroit's restored theatres are doing wondering in bringing people back downtown. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 9 Registered: 04-2007 |
seems true miket | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 571 Registered: 02-2007 |
You miss some Jelk -KFC -Wal-Mart -NYSE There are many more also. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4308 Registered: 10-2003 |
The New York Stock Exchange is a bad idea? | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 202 Registered: 09-2006 |
Detroit has a interesting conflict. It is managing very well to get thousands of people downtown for numerous reasons,, sports, meals,, entertainment, festivals etc,, and now even to live along with those of us who live here now Downtown.. Oddly retail cannot survive, makes one wonder if its because the retail, if it materializes needs to be interlinked to these various event areas as well as the office towers and downtown populations, This is where urban planning comes in , and we seem to lack it. Also, the retail must be good retail, the type that foot traffic of all types are interested to view and feel safe at the same time. Another idea is to cover the outside walking areas to protect against the elements and make the shopping areas more user friendly..You do not have the "mall" feel yet you have people who congregate under the covered areas and inturn go in stores to shop, I believe Milwaukee and small parts of Montreal have done this quite successfully. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 579 Registered: 02-2007 |
Of course, it was the root culprit to the great depression and caused many businesses to go bankrupt. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4309 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ummm...that is about as historically inaccurate as an analysis of the Great Depression could possibly get. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 1137 Registered: 08-2006 |
I would give this advice. Milwaukee built a mall downtown in the 80's, when nobody lived downtown. To shop there, you had to go out of your way to buy something downtown. You really had to want to support downtown to go and do that. Not to mention, the store were selling luxury things, stuff people didn't really need. After 3 years it was nearly empty. Downtown Milwaukee now has several thousand residents and needed a mall or some kind of retail. The mall is alive and well today but only because of the nearly 10K middle class people living close to it. If you're going to build a successful mall downtown. -There needs to be a large middle class population. Substantial, not 2 or 3 thousand. -There need to be anchor stores with stuff people need. Grocery stores or stores like Marshalls. Clothes and such. You can add luxury stores later but get a base established. -pedestrian friendly is more important than parking. Most people downtown are going to be walking or biking, don't worry about parking as suburbanites are going to be a small part of your customer base. -attach to hotels to get more stores. Have a food court or other stores for visitors or businessmen to go to. | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1070 Registered: 09-2004 |
Milwaukee. That is the first time you've posted something that made sense. Keep breathing oxygen buddy. It's good for you. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 581 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Ummm...that is about as historically inaccurate as an analysis of the Great Depression could possibly get." What I meant about it was, if it never had come into existance, our grand and great grandfathers would not have put all their money in there or in other words, poor speculation for greed. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 1139 Registered: 08-2006 |
I would also like to say, don't build a mall. I think street level retail is far more important. It's better for a downtown to have streets lined with shops and cafe's rather than having everything concentrated into a big box. Work on improving downtown block by block before planning a mall. Doesn't downtown Detroit already have the winter garden? Why the hell would there be any need to build a new mall on the river? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2957 Registered: 10-2004 |
Downtown Milwaukee is vastly different from downtown Detroit. For starters, Milwaukee has Marquette University--a targeted college for the kids of New York City types who lavish their spoiled kids with overly generous allowances. These kids live nearby downtown and are a stable customer base. They don't have cars and are stuck with downtown shops. Still, the Grand Avenue project a quarter-century ago never caught on to anything resembling a critical mass of Milwaukee's townies. The biggest blame was that the urban planners back then who brought Milwaukee the Urban Renewal disasters of the 1960s and 1970s then made downtown very car-unfriendly. Ever seen a lead balloon soaring to great heights? Anyway, another generation of brilliant urban planners now busted up the roadblocks of yore and even allowed cars downtown. What a novel idea! It's not hard to imagine that this would help business. But having the merchants there in Milwaukee prosper. Hardly, it's all relative and compared to the dismal past. When more stores come on the scene, that area will become over-stored as currently Madison is and the individual stores will earn less or lose more... Stores in any market--whether a mall or otherwise--are only very profitable for a short time span and then they suffer relatively afterwards. I would take DY Milwaukee's pronouncements with a grain of salt. The good times are short and have long time intervals in between. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on April 05, 2007) | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4310 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Yeah all those Okies had to leave their farms and look for work in California because they were overly leveraged in the stock market. This is what Skulker means when he says Dumbfuckistan. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 11 Registered: 04-2007 |
Milwaukee is different. 1st, it did not have a tremendous riot in 1967. And, it did not have quite the white flight that followed. It is not a company town. It still suffered through the last 30 years though. It now is doing very well, because ,in order of importance a) people live in town (the east side, the south side, the north side) b) the lakefront is really beautiful and accessible which invites even suburbanites to come c) people feel very safe walking around in downtown Milwaukee. It has not gotten completely back to the glory of its heyday, but it is far nicer than St.Louis, Detroit, any city in upstate New York, etc. Marquette is not big enough to anchor that city. Just as Yale can't anchor New Haven. The key is people live down town . Period. Don't put the cart before the horse, retail shops will not bring residents. Residents will attract business. It is how the free market works. Just for clarity- I went to Marquette, and I am a New Yorker, and my parents did give me too much allowance. Marquette students patronise local campus businesses for 99% of their purchases, not down town businesses. Even with them, the area around Marquette was horrendous and growing worse. People were being shot, raped, robbed. Marquette finally bought everything, and I mean everything within four blocks of the campus and demolished the old structures and redeveloped. It is now a much cleaner, safer, albeit quieter, neighborhood. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2958 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Clueless, clueless, clueless! Milwaukee had its riot on the very same night as Detroit's. The National Guard was brought in. There were curfews for some days and nights, depending on proximity to the rioted area. And order was restored without many of its savages acting the ways theirs did in Detroit. Just goes to show how little the above poster knows. A sensible reader wouldn't need to read any further. I didn't... (Message edited by LivernoisYard on April 05, 2007) | ||
Detroiternthemist Member Username: Detroiternthemist Post Number: 84 Registered: 01-2006 |
I dont understand the logic its not like GLC was in a very dense area...but with the "you build it they will come logic" that area is booming now. I believe the time is now...the buzz is hot Downtown is ready to blow.... If you did a trappers alley/sommerset type place in the old MGM with lots of freeway access...so the non-walkers dont get confused. I think it would be perfect. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 1143 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yeah Michigan! My family is a huge Marquette Family. Uncles, aunts, grandparents, parents all went to Marquette. I love Marquette! Thanks for the spreading the good word of Milwaukee. Back to thread. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 1144 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Clueless, clueless, clueless! Milwaukee had its riot on the very same night as Detroit's." 1. Milwaukee had 1 deaths Detroit had 47 deaths 2. The actual violence only lasted 1 night. 3. It was very quickly contained and only affected roughly 6 square blocks of the near north side. There was a riot, it was not tremendous. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 12 Registered: 04-2007 |
I don't mean to flame anyone, but: Liverspots I would guess you've never read anything to completion. For your own good I recommend that you start doing so. Also, work on your reading comprehension skills, so you can understand what little you do read. I didn't say MKE had no rioting. I said it did not have a tremendous riot. That is the truth. So is everything else in the post, IMHO. Ad hominem attacks are the sign of a weak argument. Detroiternthemist- I think you are talking about Great Lakes Crossing. If I am right then you have spent too much time in the mist and can no longer see clearly. GLC is an outlet mall, like the ones in Kenosha WI, or Riverhead NY, or countless others. They are built on the edges of existing "exurbs" on cheap wide open land with lots and lots and lots of parking for people to come and buy what they think is discounted merchandise (that is a thread on its own). The exurbs then continue to grow around them . The people were going to move there anyway, just like in Gurnee,Illinois. Maybe some people would want to condemn and demolish 20 square blocks of downtown Detroit and replace it with a Bass Pro Shop, a Johnny Rockets, and an ersatz antique merry-go-round (oh yeah, a huge parking lot too). Not me.I hope this clears up my earlier post. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 607 Registered: 02-2007 |
Michigan, we already have a Johnny Rockets, try again. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 13 Registered: 04-2007 |
Try what urbanize? What is your point? Please say something, anything,that adds to the discussion. (By the way, do they serve Coneys at JRs?) I'm sure you have ideas about what we are discussing. Saying that there is already a JR in Detroit neither refutes nor confirms my arguments. In fact, it is a red herring, another sign of a weak argument. No one seems able to argue the point that people need to live in a neighborhood to make it thrive. |
