Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Korean immigrant finds role in Detroit's improvement Previous Next
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Tetsua
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Username: Tetsua

Post Number: 1160
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 11:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/s tories/M/MI_PROFILE_PANGBORN_M IOL-?SITE=MIDTN&SECTION=HOME&T EMPLATE=DEFAULT

Interesting article about the riverfront, Pangborn design, and new investment in the D.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 1179
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 11:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a nice story. It's time to stop shitting on our immigrants. We need to help them out when they're just starting. Seriously, imagine if the city helped out all the new Mexican families in Southwest.

Immigrants seem like an untouched group of innocent people who want to learn more and do good in America.

Seriously though, good for this guy.
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Rjlj
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Username: Rjlj

Post Number: 307
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 12:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who helped out our immigrant relatives when they arrived here?
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 378
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 12:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, speaking for my own immigrant relatives, Ford and GM, by giving them decent paying jobs.
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 74
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 8:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with you, Milwaukee.

Immigrants should be welcomed...illegal aliens are the problem.

Not every immigrant is illegal.
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Andylinn
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Username: Andylinn

Post Number: 355
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 9:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what's wrong with illegal immigrants? i mean... in all honesty, why do they deserve to be here any less?
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 1192
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 9:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"illegal aliens are the problem"

I'd have to disagree with you there. Illegal immigrants came here because things back home were so terrible. They couldn't wait the 5 or 10 years back in old country to get a visa and come here legally. 95% of them are here to work and raise their families in safe settings and send their kids to school. I have nothing but respect for any human being who sacrifices that much for their family.

We are the land of opportunity aren't we? If we aren't, then its time to end the false advertising.
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 388
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 9:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

95% of them are here to work...

Can you please reference your source for this profound percentage and while you are at it, the waiting time for a visa (5 to 10 years), or was it pulled out of the thin air?

Thanks in advance Milwaukee.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 722
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 9:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, something has Quozl in a crappy mood (speaking to other folks on the Thread besides him).

(Message edited by Urbanize on April 07, 2007)
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 389
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 9:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not at all urbanize. Just would prefer to see this reference as this is not what I have read from the Pew Research Center for the People (http://people-press.org/) or other online sources.

Thanks for your concern, I appreciate it.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2986
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You'll have to forgive this Milwaukee HS kid. Eventually, he'll realize that he cannot go on as he does with his facts and such because when he carries on in that manner his nose keeps growing and gives him away. He has a penchant for prefabrication--which some less polite folks would call fibs or lies or, simply put, BS.
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 390
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the "heads up" Livernoisyard. I have appreciated some of his posts that concerned photographs thus far.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 1194
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quozl, I don't have any numbers. I just say what I see. I don't think that Mexicans or illegals are bad people. I think they're good hard working family people. Just my experience.

(Message edited by milwaukee on April 07, 2007)
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2987
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, he goes to the same high school that I attended for my first two years before transferring to a public high school for the last two years. In some posts, he said that Milwaukee's school choice (vouchers) kids couldn't attend religious schools, such as his high school.

However, that is total BS because well over 25% of school choice kids in Milwaukee attend Catholic parochial schools. After I showed him the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel newspaper article about that, he said that maybe some were allowed to attend religious schools but it was highly restricted--another lie on his part.

The real blow came when I mentioned that his own parochial school--Marquette University HS--accepted vouchers from inner city kids for school choice. Apparently, he doesn't even know that much about his own high school, or he just lies about it.

That's why I once suspected he wasn't even from Milwaukee. But he does have an MUHS email address, so I accept that he does attend there.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on April 07, 2007)
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 391
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the reply Milwaukee. I personally employ loads of Central Americans and have no problem with their work ethic. My only requirement is the possession of a legal Green Card and Social Security number.

I inherited 1600 acres in south Texas 10 years ago east of Del Rio. I have personally witnessed vast destruction of fences to the point that I have been compelled to erect wooden ladders over various fences to prevent further destruction and to keep cattle and deer contained. It is a major "cash cow" for me as the land leases for $300.00 an acre yearly and I get upwards of $2000.00 per gun for deer hunting. They also destroyed the old home that was on the property to the point that I burned it down last year.

Presently the US Border Patrol leases 6 acres as they have numerous trailers to apprehend, house and immediately deport any illegals that enter between Del Rio and Eagle Pass, Texas.

What frightens me is that over the past year many of the illegals entering my property are not from Mexico or Central American countries, but rather Algeria, Libya, Occupied Palestine, Yemen and other Middle Eastern countries. This unfortunately does not make it on CNN or FOX News as U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement IMMEDIATELY transports them in windowless busses to Laughlin Air Force Base in Del Rio where they are flown to points unknown. Hate to say this, but what we are witnessing down in south Texas is an invasion masquerading as immigration. I am deeply saddened that America has learned absolutely nothing from the September 11, 2001 attacks and that 2,986 innocent people died in vain.
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 77
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andylinn: in reference to your question:

"what's wrong with illegal immigrants? i mean... in all honesty, why do they deserve to be here any less?"

1. Because it is a slap in the face to everyone who followed and respect our country and it's laws and came here legally.

2. Because we as a nation, and particularly Detroit as a city, can't afford it. The Heritage Foundation made a cost study of what it costs American taxpayers to have illegal aliens in this country:

$100,000,000,000 (BILLION) per year; $397,000,000,000 (BILLION) if Bush's guest worker plan is approved. Thats 4x as much. I can't afford it, can you?

3. Because we shouldn't have to learn a foreign language not of our choosing just to to work in our own country. You must not see "bi-lingual prefered" in job ads much. They do not mean French or Japanese. These jobs require this specifically to cater to the inordinate amount of illegal aliens presently in this country.

4. Because arbitrary enforcement of our laws is inherently wrong. If we could pick and choose which laws we would like to follow, I'd be ignoring the speed limits and smoking big fatties.

In all honesty, I could cite many more examples, but that's not what this thread is about.

Legal immigrants are admitted into this country in measured numbers, not discriminating against one nationality/ethincity/race or another to avoid a strain on our resources.

Whether they're from Norway, Nicaragua or Nigeria, if they come here legally, RESPECT our country and adhere to our laws, I welcome them.

Does that explain it?
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 1195
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 11:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LY, I'm from Milwaukee, I live here, my family's frome here, and I love my city. I get tired of your trashing it. I've lived in it, I'm in it everyday. It's my hometown and I love the city. I feel the same pain you do about what has happened to parts of it, but it is still a wonderful city with lots of potential.

Quozl, I share your same fear of terrorists coming over from Mexico. I know the immigrants are causing quite a lot of problems for those southern states. Trust me, I hate the thugs, the murderers, the drug lords. I hate them and I don't want them here, illegal or not.

I don't have a problem with the hard working folks and families who come over. I feel they're doing their best to escape those who are running their country. I feel they're here for a better life, I cannot blame them for having the will to leave their families and old towns for a new life.

Believe me, I hate nothing more than those who take advantage of the poor and the powerless.

Also, I've got some cousins who own quite a bit of land near El Paso. I should ask them sometime what problems are caused by illegals.
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Michigan
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Username: Michigan

Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 11:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Milwaukee is a young kid, and as my grandfather used to say, full of piss and vinegar. He is idealistic because he is young. Nothing wrong with that. I think it is good for him to be here, and get beaten up sometimes when he doesn't get things right. It will make him tighten up his reasoning. But i don't think there is any malice in his posts. I think it is youthful over eagerness.

Off-topic LY and Milwaukee, i posted on the paging LY thread. Hope you guys look, it was great to hear what you both had to say. Happy Easter
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 393
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:04 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seen elsewhere:

If you are ready for the adventure of a lifetime, TRY THIS:

Enter Mexico illegally. Never mind immigration quotas, visas, international law, or any of that nonsense.

Once there, demand that the local government provide free medical care for you and your entire family.

Demand bilingual nurses, doctors and teachers for your children.

Demand free bilingual local government forms, bulletins, etc. Procreate abundantly.

Deflect any criticism of this allegedly irresponsible reproductive behavior with, "It is a cultural U.S.A. thing. You would not understand amigo."

Keep your American identity strong. Fly Old Glory from your rooftop, or proudly display it in your front window or on your car bumper.

Speak only English at home and in public and insist that your children do likewise.

Demand classes on American culture in the Mexican school system.

Demand a Mexican drivers license. This will afford other legal rights and will go far to legitimize your unauthorized, illegal, presence in Mexico.

Drive around with no liability insurance and ignore local traffic laws.

Insist that local Mexican law enforcement teach English to all its officers.


Good luck Amigo! You'll be demanding for the rest of time or soon be dead. Because it will never happen. It will not happen in Mexico or any other country in the world except right here in the good old United States, land of the naive and purported politically correct.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 1198
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think if you're going to come here, you better learn the language. I don't have a problem with hanging on to culture, but you also have to assimilate.

Europe has the same problem with Africans and Arabs. In this, I place the blame solely on the minorities as their duty to blend into society.

Mexicans and spanish speakers should blend in to America. I don't have a problem with that, I think it should happen. But I'm not going to dislike all Mexicans just because of some bad apple's.
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 395
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Take it from ole Quozl, ALWAYS have a couple of Central Americans for friends. Very valuable when you have needs or wants that cannot be achieved or attained through normal channels. Their underground network of commerce that is not picked up by the US Commerce Department stats is amazing. No tax either!
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 1201
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cool, I just wanted to find some common ground with you about these issues.
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 80
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But I'm not going to dislike all Mexicans just because of some bad apple's."

No one is suggesting that at all.
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 396
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 1:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I never suggested such either Milwaukee. I am the product of four great families that emigrated to that great city of Detroit. I love Detroit, it saddens me to see what happened to my hometown I miss deep in my heart. My whole family is still there, M & P are getting up there in age (mid 70's) and I really wanted to relocate home.

Not going to happen in my lifetime, though I would consider a nice HUGE home I found down in Tecumseh, MI 49286 last month.
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Smogboy
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Username: Smogboy

Post Number: 4953
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 1:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What part of "Illegal immigrants" did we fail to recognize here? There are lawful immigrants and illegal immigrants. Me? I'd settle for the lawful ones any day.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3309
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 4:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Because we shouldn't have to learn a foreign language not of our choosing just to to work in our own country"

I agree. I have applied for Computer Programming jobs that pay well. However, the folks doing the hiring have always asked me what programming languages I know. What bullshit! Why should I have to learn computer languages to get a computer programing job!
I don't need no computer langages!
I talk Amerikan!
I admit that it would be better if I spoke English, as Amerikan is contaminated with all sorts of dirty foreign words like "chimichanga" and "bratwurst". However, talking Amerikan is the next best thing to speaking English.
Why should I have to know programming languages to get a job in this country?

As for the term "Legal"; What does that mean?
Consider: One of my ancestors came here with a group of religious fanatics, without papers or passport. His last name was Winslow, and he came on the Mayflower. The good people of what is now Massachusetts welcomed him, despite his lack of legal status.
Another of my ancestors was Native American.
Her people had their land stolen, and were forced to relocate. But the theft of their land and their forced relocation was done in a method pronounced
"legal".

Finally:

"If you are ready for the adventure of a lifetime, TRY THIS:

Enter Mexico illegally. Never mind immigration quotas, visas, international law, or any of that nonsense."

I've lived and worked in Mexico illegally. It was one of the best times of my life. I paid no taxes either, because people in Mexico that have money don't pay taxes. That's one of the basic flaws of Mexico; Things work well for the rich, not so well for everybody else. It's what this country would be like if Republicrites ran it for a few more years.

I met lots of folks in Mexico who wanted to learn English. Teaching it was one of my jobs.
Has Quozl ever bothered to try to learn another language? Even though you live in Texas, which used to be part of Mexico until it was stolen in the mid 19th century?

I've also lived in Southwest Detroit, with neighbors who were Mexican Immigants, both illegal and legal. None of my neighbors ever made any of the ridiculous demands that Quozl downloaded off some right-wing barking dog site.
Not all of my neighbors spoke good English, but all of their kids did;
Most of the new business that have sprung up in Southwest Detroit in the last 25 years are owned by Mexican Immigrants, some are owned by Arab or Asian Immigrants. I don't miss all the empty commercial buildings from two decades back;
Can we get another ten or twenty thousand immigrants to settle in Highland Park, because HP is looking a bit desolate to me.

I've said it before, but it need to be said again; If you anti-illegal immigrant fetishists really want to make an impact, why not grow your own fruits and vegetables and process your own meat?
To spew all this bile while stuffing your pie-holes with the fruit of illegal immigrant labor is pure hypocrisy.
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 131
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 7:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THIS IS THE DAMN PROBLEM HERE. We GET NEWS ABOUT A HUMAN READY TO DEVELOP MORE OF OUR RIVERFRONT DISTRICT, AN YAW WANNA BITCH ABOUT IMMIGRATION.

Maybe these old generation that are negatively butt fuked jus need to retire in Travers City so the city of Detroit can move forward in the 21 century.This article is about passion and heart. Yaw bout to be left behind
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5769
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 9:57 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's right. We need to stop playing RACE CARDS with each other and start bringing in ethnic development to Detroit. Asian Village is Mr. Pangborn's way to bring back an Asian community to Detroit long after Chinatown in the Cass Corridor area dissapeared after 1990 and move to Madison Heights and Troy. If this new Asian Village on the corner of Atwater and Beaubien St. gains some success, the community would expand throughout the east side or west sides of Detroit.

(Message edited by danny on April 08, 2007)
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 133
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 10:19 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That sounds like we are on the right road to recovery,, asian merchants, like in other major cities will soon begin filling in downtown store fronts with some essential retail,, dry cleaners, flower shops, odds and ends stores.Here at Trolley plaza, young asian students are moving in in little groups, changing the demographic of the tenent population. People who can't afford a condo at BC want to at least live close to it.
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Frumoasa
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Username: Frumoasa

Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:19 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honestly, my husband and I have been trying to get our relatives over here legally for almost 5 years, and they haven't even gotten on the waiting list. we enter them in the green card lottery, send letters of invitation, I even went to the embassy with them and was made to wait outside the gats of the US embassy as a citizen. Honestly, USCIS can go screw themselves because there are lots of people who make every effort to come here legally that get refused for no good reason.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11469
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's crazy is I sit here reading this thread and my dad chimes in from the living room "Asiantown is gonna open in June. 80 condos are gonna be built along the river...." I asked where he's reading that, and it was in today's Adrian Daily Telegram. Ironic that I'm sitting here reading the online version, while he was reading the exact same article in the paper in the other room.
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Plymouthres
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Username: Plymouthres

Post Number: 52
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone see the O'reilly/Geraldo "fight", I mean, show where they are arguing about immigration? It's amazing that someone would argue FOR ILLEGAL immigration that lives here.It hurts those that have waited to get in and it will continue to undermine our comeback until we all insist that it isn't good in any way, shape or form.

The difference that I see in immigration started with the demise of Ellis Island, in my opinion. When there was only one point of entrance into this country, immigration was somewhat controlled and this country was able to "weed out" the undesirables. Now, they just walk across our borders as they please and they DO bring a majority of the crime with them (and I'm not just talking Hispanics here, although their proximity to the countries main border makes them stand out more!!). After all, they are breaking FEDERAL and State laws just being illegals in the first place! Geraldo had no answer to O'reilly's question of WHAT PART OF ILLEGAL DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? It was hilarious to watch him stammer every time O'reilly brought it up!!

The other side is that I agree with the deplorable/desparate condition part and them wanting a better life. I'm just not into them getting here at all of our expense.

The example of an illegal coming here and having a child in this country is played out all of the time, and it costs us millions in health care alone, not to mention it takes away from the legitimacy of those who have waited their turn. My friend, who lives in San Antonio, talks about this all the time. I think of Nueve Larado and various other border towns all the time when this is brought up. Perhaps Quozol could help me out on this as he lives the experience where he is from far better than I. I think to "play" to or argue against the logic of coming here illegal vs. legal is just to cater to the bleeding heart liberals, and to cast your own future into turmoil.

Perhaps there is a reason that they have to wait?
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Downtown_remix
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Username: Downtown_remix

Post Number: 135
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 1:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If i were asian working at GM, it would be a no brainer to want to relocate an buy a condo in rivertown, walking distance to Asian village, my job, and the people mover.Its the beginning of a lifestyle thats gonna spread throughout greater downtown.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3311
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 1:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Perhaps there is a reason that they have to wait?"
Hey, your onto something there...it's called bureaucracy.
Last time that I broke the law, the cop gave me a ticket and I paid a fine.
Let those who are here illegally pay a fine and processing costs for eventual citizenship...
End of problem.
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 85
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 1:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Barnesfoto: There's a difference a acquiring a job skill and having to learn a foreign language by force and you know it.

There is a bumper sticker I've seen around here in Houston, lately. It says:

"Give illegals what they REALLY want: a better life in their own country."

I wonder if the corrupt governments they are fleeing cleaned up their act, how many people would stay in America because they "love" this country? I'd bet not many; many have told me to my face that they hate it here.

The recent presidential election in Mexico proves my point. The election was rigged; everyone knows it. Instead of supporting the shadow government of the real winner, people are just turning tail and running. Nothing will ever be solved that way, including the brewing resentment on both sides of the issue.

Here's a wake up call: One of my co-workers came into work crying. She's of hispanic heritage; her family has been here since Texas independence. Yet, some one heard her speaking Spanish to the convenience store clerk and said to her. "Why don't you go back where you came from!"

"I'm from here!" she shot back.

In other words, she's more Texan than I am (as I am a native Detroiter.) This issue has so many ramifications and levels that it is creating more problems than our "open door-free for all" policy is solving.
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 397
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 2:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has Quozl ever bothered to try to learn another language? Yes I have Barnesfoto, I speak and write fluent Spanish and Arabic.

Even though you live in Texas, which used to be part of Mexico until it was stolen in the mid 19th century? Your question (sic) is what assmunch? The last I looked, Michigan belonged to the Ojibwa, Iroquois and other tribes of Native Americans. I guess it was not stolen either? Give me a freakin' break rocketman!
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3313
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 2:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Learning a foreign language by force? WHO exactly is forcing you? I know that Texas is a weird place, but could you describe the people who are "forcing" you? What sort of uniforms do they wear?

Learning a computer programming language is a job skill, learning a foreign language is also a job skill, with added social value.
You live in Texas and you want a sales job? You will double your opportunities by learning Spanish. It's not that hard, you have multiple opps to practice, and it will make your life richer. It's the one of the best skills that I ever acquired.
However, at this point, Mandarin would be a better bet; However if you don't want to learn a rather extensive new alphabet, along with the tonal ranges that make Chinese languages such a bitch to learn, I would recommend Spanish.

I'm not qualified to decide whether the Mexican Election was rigged,(regional politics is certainly dirty business; consider what's been going on in Oaxaca) but I know that the party that rigged elections for 70 years, (The PRI) no longer holds a monopoly on the presidency.
That's progress.

As for an "open door free for all policy", if things are that simple, why would people be sneaking across the Sonora Dessert instead of simply wading across the river at Laredo or San Diego?
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3314
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 2:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The last I looked, Michigan belonged to the Ojibwa, Iroquois and other tribes of Native Americans. I guess it was not stolen either?"

That's my point exactly, pendejo.
This country is founded on acts of dubious legality, so all this moral huffing and puffing over who's more "legal" is a little shaky.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2988
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 2:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

"The last I looked, Michigan belonged to the Ojibwa, Iroquois and other tribes of Native Americans. I guess it was not stolen either?"


Let's not forget that those last bands of Indians referred to above simply stole from, pushed out, or killed the others who were here before they were.
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 88
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 3:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The bottom line is that Dominic Pangborn was legally adopted as an American, speaks English (evidently) well and is giving back to his adopted country. Let's not mince words...we all know the difference between legal and not. I applaud Mr. Pangborn's efforts.

As for Barnesfoto's comments personally to me: I'm taking your suggestions in the spirit in which they were offered. I don't know where you're from, but I've spent equal amounts of time in both Detroit and Texas, so I speak from experience.

I speak French and Italian and a smidgen of Polish. My life is rich, too, thank you. Spanish is too similar to Italian and I find it confusing. Frankly my energies would be better spent learning other things besides a FOURTH language.

But that is my business, and should be my choice. Having to learn one particular language should not be the end-result of my country's inability to monitor its borders.

Since you brought it up, people DO in fact, wade across the river, AND Texas was NOT STOLEN. Your statements to the contrary are not based on fact...do your research before making hair-trigger, reactionary comments like these!

Going to cook dinner, now....Happy Easter, Detroit!
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Michigan
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Username: Michigan

Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 3:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LY is exactly right. The entire world is built on land that was taken from someone else. Here in the North America, The Europeans were the latest winners. To say that implies dubious legality exposes a complete lack of understanding of the laws of nations and history. So please stop it.
By the way, those illegals coming across the border are living on land that there ancestors stole from some one else. The Aztecs and Incas conquered, let me say thatagain, CONQUERED countless groups and showed no deference to their cultural proclivities. The conquered were forced to assimilate. So stop with the revisionist B-llsh-t and look at the world as it is and was. In my opinion we happen to be one of the better countries to be conquered by.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3315
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 4:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course the Aztecs conquered!..their harsh mistreatment of the smaller groups that they conquered led directly to their demise. There's a lesson there for us, I think.
My point is that all the moral highgrounding over "legality" is kinda funny. The Americans that were here before us lost their land to newcomers, but the "laws" favored the newcomers.
I am the product of ancestors who came without papers, ancestors who came with papers, and ancestors who had their land stolen by Europeans.
Yet things worked out. There was room for my grandparents to come to Detroit, though things were crowed when they got here.
There's plenty of room left for more people to come. When there are no more vacant homes in Detroit, maybe I'll change my opinions.
Meanwhile, which of you folks who scream about illegals and "being forced to learn Spanish" are raising your own crops and processing your own meat?
(Barnes recommends Texas wild boar, marinated in Jamaican Jerk sauce, and slow cooked on the grill)



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Cheddar_bob
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Username: Cheddar_bob

Post Number: 913
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 4:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The difference that I see in immigration started with the demise of Ellis Island, in my opinion. When there was only one point of entrance into this country, immigration was somewhat controlled and this country was able to "weed out" the undesirables...



When was there only one point of entry for this country again? Remember, please give exact dates and cite your sources. Was that when everybody's relatives came here legally? Because it has been my observation that most of the anti-illegal crowd's assumption is that everyone (or even a majority)of people that came here in the past did so legally. I don't believe that is the case.

And for the people that think everybody here should speak 'merican, I say I thought this was a free country where you are able to do the things you want. Like speak in a different language, for instance. Does it bother you that much that you can't listen in on someone else's private conversation? Does it get your panties in a bunch when you're in the grocery store and you see both of the words "corn" and "maize"? I guess I could see how that could get annoying having to look at two words and all.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3316
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 5:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course, no one should be forced to learn languages that they don't want to learn...
Eastside, who writes from a state where Spanish was spoken before English was spoken, claims that some people are forcing her to learn Spanish.
Please, give us the details. Are they armed? How many of them? What is the location?
We'll send help, just give us the details.
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Plymouthres
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Username: Plymouthres

Post Number: 54
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 8:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cheddar_bob-

Perhaps I mis-spoke, but I think not. My grandparents arrived through the Ellis portal LEGALLY in the early 1920's so I did a quick check of the numbers and years via this website http://www.ellisisland.org/gen ealogy/ellis_island_timeline.a sp.

After reading the figures, I now stand even more by my statement, with the one difference being that I should have added the word LEGAL before the word immigration (the last entry, dated 17 April, 2001 states that "some 25 million LEGAL immigrants entered through Ellis Island from 1897 to 1924"). Perhaps after reading some of "Timeline" section, you will agree. I doubt that the total number of LEGAL immigrants through Canada or the Mexican border areas would equal the numbers posted on that website that came through Ellis, as the late 19th and early 20th centuries saw the largest influx of LEGAL immigrants ever seen in this country. Either that, or I can't read very well. By the way, I don't se that there was any CONTROLLED immigration in the southwest area until the early 20th century (1930's and beyond), so ILLEGAL is only relevant to Ellis in the case of my argument.

Since this is a thread on Korean/Asian immigration (LEGAL, I might add!) and their assimilation into American society, specifically Detroit, I'll step off here. Perhaps a new thread will start in which I can do more research to further my point?
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Michigan
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Username: Michigan

Post Number: 20
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 9:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

eh vato, I am not taking sides here, but I want to point a few things out, okay jefe?
The growing your own food argument is fallacious. America's economy specialized to the point where a minority of the population produced the food for the majority centuries ago. Especially north of the Mason Dixon line(that's a major reason that the north defeated the south in the civil war- You should read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond for a discussion about how this has happened throughout history resulting in the births of great empires around the world.)
These efficiencies achieved through specialization led directly to the industrial revolution which enabled the "First World" economies, and built great cities like Detroit the world over.
Today, countries whose economies are still based on the majority of the population growing their own food are commonly called "Third World" countries.
Hypothetically, If no illegals were allowed in the United States, the crop would still be grown. It might cost more in the short run. But over time the additional costs would spur technological advancement to improve efficiency. With illegals, the cost is too low to make developing more advanced harvesting methods worthwhile.

and jefe, I don't think that la chica literally means she is forced. But perhaps, she is expressing her frustration at what she perceives as the injustice of her government tailoring itself to the needs of new immigrants. Be they legal or illegal. Hey, to a lot of people the government seems to care more about the needs, sensitivities, and feelings of new immigrants than it does about good old citizens in places like DETROIT. It may not be a lot of money, but a lot of people think that every tax dollar spent on bilingual paperwork and road signs would be better directed at helping unemployed CITIZENS.

Oh and Barnes, mi amigo- The aztecs (and incas, and iroquois, et cetera)were destroyed because they faced an overwhelming new enemy in the europeans. The European's technology (i.e. Gunpowder, steel, the wheel, horses) gave them one advantage. But more importantly, the europeans had not been isolated as the pre-columbian americans were. And so their immunity to disease gave them an invincible advantage. That mi amigo is why all existing pre-columbian civilizations were crushed by the europeans.

(Message edited by michigan on April 08, 2007)
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Cheddar_bob
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Username: Cheddar_bob

Post Number: 915
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 10:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Plymouth, I understand what you're saying, but to say the Ellis Island was the only immigration gateway is pure fallacy and ignores thousands of miles of open border to the north and the south. You said "When there was only one point of entrance into this country...". I was asking when was Ellis Island the only point of entry? That is the fault in your logic that I am pointing out. From your posted website..."During 1891, there were 405,664 immigrants, or about 80% of the national total.." that came through Ellis. Where did the other 20% come from? I don't know, but I'm sure we can agree that it wasn't Ellis Island. Ergo, I still question your statement that there was a time that Ellis was the only point of entry for immigrants, legal or otherwise. BTW, there was a good thread about immigration a couple of weeks ago. We debated back and forth and it was very spirited. Then, I realized nobody was changing anybody else's minds and stopped posting on it, Perfectgentleman proved he was anything but by resorting to name-calling, and it died a quiet but heroic death. You can probably resurrect it (it is easter and all), but we've gone over this issue ad nauseum. Barnes and I have dealt with the immigration issue first hand (although not together. I don't even know the guy. I deal with it every day and know all about it on a personal level), so we are on the more compassionate, understanding side of the fence. The other side of the fence lies the anti-illegal crowd which I am convinced is mostly comprised of whiny, right-wing, thinly veiled-racists that have no first-hand knowledge of what goes on at the street level. I have, however, enjoyed what Quozl has had to say about the subject. Literally living on the border gives him a first-hand experience that, in my book, gives him far more credibility than most of the anti-illegal whiny bitches.
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Cheddar_bob
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Username: Cheddar_bob

Post Number: 916
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 10:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, and you're right about this thread being about legal Korean immigrants. Maybe it can get back on that track. I doubt it, but maybe.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 413
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cheddar_bob -

It is funny that you try to discredit my arguments on illegal immigration by saying I killed that whole thread by name calling. I get called alot more names on here than most, occasionally I get sick of it and fight back, usually in a humorous way. The vast majority of my threads are backed up by factual data and logic, unlike yours, which are based on your "personal experience" with a few immigrants you know.

Public policy should not be decided by anecdotes relating to some people you may have met that work hard and are nice folks. If I escaped a third-world nation and received free services, I guess I would be pretty nice to the locals too.

It makes no difference if the current wave of immigrants are similar in attitude to those of the past or not in the end, although there are huge differences which I have articulated in detail on other threads. But even if we stipulate that the current wave is similar in that they want to come here and work hard and find a better way of life, the conditions in this country are different.

We do not have unlimited jobs, public services and infrastructure, and the welfare state is enormous compared to decades ago. The nation has "matured" alot since the industrial revolution and low-skill jobs are being lost. Meanwhile we are allowing millions of uneducated people to come here that will be competing for these jobs because they lack the skills to do much else. They also lack the resources to pay for their education.

They will use more public services than they can pay for with their taxes. In Europe, which has embarked upon this experiment before we have because of their low birth rate, has enormous numbers of immigrants on public assistance. They are also having major issues assimilating these people because they have no desire to adopt European cultural norms. The immigrant riots in France and elsewhere are only the beginning.

In the end, immigration needs to be managed within the rule of law and also taking into account what benefit any potential citizen would bring to this country. The best answer for most of these people would be if their host countries reformed their economic and political systems so they could provide a better way of life. They have no incentive to do so if they can merely export all of their poor people to us.
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Cheddar_bob
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Username: Cheddar_bob

Post Number: 917
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PG, I wasn't saying that you killed thread. I just was recalling the highlights as I remembered them. You are on one side of the fence (see above) and I am on the other. We will never see eye to eye on this issue. You're not going to come around to my side, so I'm not going to kill myself with an endless debate. I suggest you do the same. Maybe we can agree on this...Above Barnes mentioned having the people that are here illegally pay a fine and start the process of becoming citizens. I think this would be a good start (except the $10,000 sounds a little steep) would this be agreeable? Also, read Frumoasa's post above. I think this is a problem that needs to be addressed. The red tape is atrocious. If a Mexican is here illegally, then marrys a US citizen, they still have to go back to Mexico for 10 years before even having a chance to get back here. Does that sound fair to you? It doesn't to me. I think these are the problems that need solutions, and putting up a 1,000 mile wall doesn't do anything for these problems.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 415
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 12:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The wall serves the purpose of helping to secure the border, without which any solution is pointless. If we don't stop the influx, why would anyone come forward and go through the legal process?

As our incompetent government has ignored the problem for years, any plan adopted now is going to be much harder to execute. Getting people to come out of the shadows is part of it, how they would afford these fines I have no idea.

As for those who married a US citizen, that was a decision they made, knowingly breaking the law. They should follow the process whatever it is.
The fact is that many of these people do need to go back home, we cannot absorb the huge numbers we have been getting. Any with criminal records for example should be deported immediately. Those that do not have means to be employed need to go back as well.

Priority one needs to be securing the border to prevent the problem from getting even larger and giving meaning to any plan to fix the problem of what to do with those that are here already. I feel a physical barrier is needed as well as increased numbers of border guards. When the government can prove to the nation that they can enforce the laws we have then maybe we can talk about guest workers and increased legal immigration plans. The anarchy we have now simply won't do.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3317
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 1:23 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My biggest problem is the moral grandstanding with the term "legal". Many people in this country made fortunes "legally" from the labor of slaves, as it was once "legal" to own another human being. Others obtained title to land "legally" even though it had been stolen from people who were here previously.
The vilification of Mexicans and Central Americans is nothing new, the same cliches were repeated again and again about Italians, Jews, the Irish, The Japanese, The Chinese...
Generally, when laws are just, most people obey the laws, and the few who don't when caught pay for their mistakes.
However, when massive numbers of people break the law, it's often a sign that the law holds more flaws than the people breaking it;
Recent examples: Prohibition, Jim Crow laws, The 55 Mph speed limit, and laws prohibiting the possession or cultivation of a plant that has been in use for thousands of years.
Back to the subject of the thread:
Kudos to Dominic Pangborn, an outstanding member of the creative community who has always kept his business in the City of Detroit.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3318
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 1:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PD..(para mi cuate, Michigan...)
Te aconsejo leer las cartas de Hernan Cortez a los Reyes Catolicos... As you noted,superior arms and infectious diseases were a great help in defeating perhaps the strongest and most advanced civilization in Pre-Columbian North America; The Aztecs.
But two things really sealed the deal: Cortez had two translators who spoke the local languages, and the fact that once the tribes who suffered under the arrogance and imperialism of the Aztecs learned that the Spanish were going to attack the Aztecs, Cortez suddenly had tens of thousands of allies to join the fight.
Finally...Please buy Dominic Pangborn's stuff.
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 91
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 1:55 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"However, when massive numbers of people break the law, it's often a sign that the law holds more flaws than the people breaking it."

Flawed or not, a law is a law until a legislative body or Congress changes it. Our personal opinion does not make it OK to break; citizen or not, our laws must be respected.

If you take the emotionality and prejudice out of it, barnesfoto, it's not so difficult to understand. If you do not like a law, simply contact your appropriate representative, or work (and vote) to help change it.

Our process is not perfect, but I challenge to you to find one better.

I hope this clarifies things for you.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3321
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 2:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sounds good, ESD, but "contacting the appropriate representative" did not end British rule, slavery, prohibition, The Vietnam War, or Jim Crow Laws. What ended these unjust situations was massive civil disobedience, (with the exception of slavery, which took not only civil disobedience, but also a civil war.)
In short, what makes this country great for me was a willingness of a few people to break unjust laws when necessary, despite the bleating of many, many sheep.

I hope this clarifies things for YOU, and do let us know if some nasty folks are truly forcing you to learn a foreign language, because that would be an injustice, just as prohibiting people from speaking OTHER languages would be an injustice.

Now then, have you purchased a Pangborn tie for any of the special men in your life?
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Eastsidedame
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Username: Eastsidedame

Post Number: 92
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 5:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have it your way, BF...but it will cost you.

That'll be $397,000,000,000 (BILLION), please. Payable to the American people.
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Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan

Post Number: 21
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 9:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To start, let me say please buy Dominic Pangborn's stuff. That is the point of this thread. Maybe this should be another thread.


BF, I applaud you engagement in this national debate because it is important for our future. If more citizens took this as seriously as you our country would be better for it.Again, I don't want to take sides here, because I haven't yet made up my mind, but I must address a few of your statements-


Zoning laws and housing laws here in NY are unjust and should be dismantled because most of those who come illegally live in illegal apartments?

Most illegals in NY drive without a license or insurance, so those must be done away with as well?

What about identity theft, since these folks are forced to steal someone else's Social Security number.

Let's not stop- Taxes should also be done away with. Since millions of citizens as well as illegals don't declare all there income, especially cash tips( e.g. waitstaff, massueses, migrant workers, bellhops, hotelmaids, baggage handlers, parking attendants).

There are so many more laws that many people break that we should just take off the books.

Your thought that the willingness of a few people to break unjust laws makes this country great is vapid and tinged with shallow pop-culture influence. It (like your inability to realize that no matter what Senor Cortez said in his letters, the Aztecs could not have defeated the Spanish in the long run; never mind that you think British rule was ended in the original thirteen colonies without a revolution) shows that you are adept at seeing the surface of things but you do not yet understand the concept that some conditions may be contributing without being necessary or sufficient. That is, civil disobedience MAY have been a contributing catalyst for SOME of these issues, but by itself it would not have been sufficient to force change on any of them.
People all over the world try to protest unjust laws. They are usually jailed, beaten, tortured, and/or killed. The fact that does not happen in the United States because we have a constitution that protects us (even people who think stupid things) from being jailed, beaten, tortured, and/or killed for our thoughts or for expressing them is THE necessary factor. Specifically, that constitution en toto is what makes this country great.
Our constitution is the root of the law, BF, and that law only matters because our country holds the rule of law sacrosanct. When people no longer believe in the rule of law, well "Katie bar the door".
By the way, the civil war was an example of massive numbers of people breaking the law on the side of the SLAVE OWNERS, NOT THE ABOLITIONISTS. They seceded from the union. Are you trying to say that the abolition of slavery was unjust and flawed?

Please keep up the lively debate, but look a little deeper.

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