Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » Water Under Detroit « Previous Next »
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 237
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can any one help me out with finding underground water? We live in Ferndale, and as such are considered by the city of Detroit as filthy rich suburbanites. Our water bill for a family of four is now more then our gas bill: over a hundred dollars a month, and will soon be going up even more. The idea of drilling a well seems like a good one (zoning aside) but I don’t know where to look, or if there is even any water down there. Currently we use some gray water for our wash in the form of discharge water from our high efficiency furnace, but it is only a few gallons per day. Is drilling here feasible? Thanks for any help. - Bullet
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 1200
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you water bill is over $100/month, you probably have leaks. Install new faucets, shower heads and toilets. You are not going to find potable water under Ferndale.
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 403
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Check this out: http://gwmap.rsgis.msu.edu/vie wer.htm
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 776
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You have to teach your family to conserve water. Read about how people in drought areas conserve and then apply. Having access to clean water is getting expensive and, if the climate continues to warm, it will be more expensive. It would be a good life lesson for kids to learn strategies for reducing water use now.

You might also see if Ferndale will allow a "yard meter" - a second meter that measures water that doesn't go into the sewerage system, such as lawn watering water.
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 239
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crew, I have all new plumbing and no leaks. I installed low flow for every thing that uses water. We only flush if its brown (sorry). We just pay a lot per/drop. I'm looking for underground water for non-drinking uses, like flushing, and the garden. If Jed Clampet could find oil, I should be able to find water.

(Message edited by Bulletmagnet on April 10, 2007)
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Jcdfde5
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Username: Jcdfde5

Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$100 a month seems to indicate a problem. I live in SCS and I pay about $120 every 3 months.
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Corktownmark
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Username: Corktownmark

Post Number: 296
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"considered by the city of Detroit as filthy rich suburbanites."

maybe should do a little more research on who determines your water rates. The city of Detroit can only charge Ferndale the same rates as they charge Detroit residents plus the cost of transporting the water. we have discussed this many many times already. Both news and freep have articles that show the complete rate structure.
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Ferntruth
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Username: Ferntruth

Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would think the answer is obvious. DWS needs to be regionalized and the books opened so those of us in the suburbs know exactly what we are paying for. I don't mind paying a reasonable rate for water. I do, however take offense at having to help pay for a radio system that only benefits the city of Detroit.

I too live in Ferndale, and can assure you that there is NO potable groundwater in this area - too many years of industrial contamination.
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 240
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Jcdfde5, it is a problem, which is why I want to drill for it. Let us not get distracted by the costs, and focus on what’s down there (if anything). Southwestmap, we do practice water conservation to some extent: military showers, reuse of discharge water, flush only if its brown, catching rain water for the garden and dog, and so on. I do skip a shower or two on the weekends, providing I can. Should I drill, is all I want to know? Or should we move to Vegas and sponge off of Ray1936?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2007
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have you water meter checked - how old is it?
$100/month is way too much - you need to figure out where it's all going. I pay bills for a business that uses a fair amount of water and ours is just over $100/month. You either have a faulty meter, a leak (does the toilet keep running sometimes?), or you are truly wasting water during your daily use (do you doing many loads of laundry, leave it running while brushing your teeth or while hand washing dishes, etc?)
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Udmphikapbob
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Username: Udmphikapbob

Post Number: 307
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ferndale, by virtue of being pretty darn close to the source, has one of the lowest wholesale rates in the area. You may want to direct your ire towards your own city officials, to see why they are tacking on so much on top of the wholesale rate.
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Ro_resident
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Username: Ro_resident

Post Number: 214
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a list of licensed well drillers in the state:

http://www.deq.state.mi.us/doc uments/deq-dwrpd-gws-wcu-Reg-C ontractors-By-County.pdf

They'll know.
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Baltgar
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Username: Baltgar

Post Number: 57
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$100 a month is too much. Are you sure you don't mean $100 every three months? It sounds like you are conserving, so something must be wrong.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1520
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Every community in the DWSD system tacks on its own surcharge to the water rate, which they pass on to their local customers. Some of those municipal surcharges are surprisingly hefty.

DWSD is constrained by state law to only charge for the cost of infrastructure maintenance and delivery. DWSD is prohibited from making a profit on its product.
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 498
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ah! Its good to have a well.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2674
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I highly doubt you are allowed to drill a well in your city. Additionally, you'd have to work around lots of underground utilities. You'd also have to drill very deep to find good water under an urban area.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 1865
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

... catching rain water for the garden and dog ...

I like that. It used to be common to see barrels under rainspouts for that purpose. Why don't more people do that today? Mosquitos?

I know we have a leak somewhere because I turned off everything, including the main for about 15 minutes. When I turned on the main again, there was an audible whooshing sound as it refilled the pipes. Now I'm looking for that leak.
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Lakesuperior
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Username: Lakesuperior

Post Number: 173
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no way you are going to be able to get a well in ferndale. no reputable well driller is going to do it for you because they would be breaking zoning laws. also, wells are the largest point source of pollution for groundwater contamination. soooo- the last thing we want in urban areas are holes leading directly into the groundwater.

sincerely,
lake superior
(former member of the michigan groundwater stewardship program!)
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 1204
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Run a hose from your neighbors yard into yours to water your garden and shower with a friend. Those two things should help cut down on your water usage.
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Zimm
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Username: Zimm

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i too live in Ferndale. my bill (as a single guy)for the most recent 3 months was $50, which is up a bit, but in line with past bills.

$100 a month seems really, really high-even for a family. do you have a lawn sprinkling system?
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Rugbyman
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Username: Rugbyman

Post Number: 91
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I live in Ferndale and just got my water bill last week. There's two of us living here and our bill was $80 for the last billing cycle. Call the city's water department and have them help you out. If I had to guess I'd say your meter is shot.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 604
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wouldn't you have to dig below the salt mines for that?
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 778
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lots of people are collecting rainwater - especially in the drought states. You put a mesh screen over the barrel to keep mosquitoes and green stuff out. Just google up rain barrel for sources. They say that you can collect a lot of water from any single rainfall if the rainwater is collected from the gutter/downspout system.
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 472
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The water table is most likely pretty shallow in Ferndale. If you're just looking for water for your lawn you could try driving one yourself. It's not very expensive, but quite a workout (And noisy). As for hooking it up to your plumbing it would be a task to separate the faucets from the rest of your plumbing (And you would probably be breaking quite a few local laws).
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Lakesuperior
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Username: Lakesuperior

Post Number: 175
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

can i please reiterate that digging/drilling a hole directly to groundwater in an urban area is an extremely irresponsible thing to do???
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Thegreenboot
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Username: Thegreenboot

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To Bulletmagnet
Yes there is water under Detroit. Between the lowest sewer lines and the salt mines there are hundreds of ancient aquaifers, one just recently discovered had almost 1 million gallons of water that probably formed there during the last ice age. 20 new species of water organisms were found in it. But regarding your water bill that big bad Detroit is forcing on you, I hate to pick a fight but you are incorrect. Detroit is not the cause, its Ferndale that is fleecing you. According to the combine water / sewer water rates for 2005 - 2006, Ferndale buys 7500 gallons of water from Detroit for $12.36. Ferndale charges $37.84 as an add on top of what they pay which means you, the consumer pay $50.20 per 7500 gallons of water, which means your beloved Ferndale marks up the water costs by 305% to their residents. Plus they do not maintain the water or sewer distribution lines, Detroit does. So if you want to drill for water, you should do that, because that will mean more water for the rest of us. If your bill is $100 per month that means you are using 15,000 gallons of water. Doesn't that seem like a lot for a family of four? Regardless, you should be thankful you don't live in Franklin Twp, they mark up their costs by 535%. So you should really complain to Ferndale instead of complaining about Detroit.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4114
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

.... and how did you get a gas bill less than $100 a month this winter??? You certainly DON'T want the gas company checking that meter...
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Motorcitydave
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Username: Motorcitydave

Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Might want to check to see how much of those charges are going to the city of Ferndale. Each city charges it's own rates on top of what the Detroit water dept sells the water for.

It gets old hearing about people in the burbs bitching about Detroit raping them on the water rates, when it is usually their own city that is charging the majority of the cost!

(Message edited by Motorcitydave on April 10, 2007)
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Ddaydave
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Username: Ddaydave

Post Number: 456
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I put in one of those 1.6 gallon per flush toilets and it cut my water bill in half and it works better then my old toilet and Gistok my heat bills are never over 80 dollars
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 936
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thegreenboot wrote, "...had almost 1 million gallons of water that probably formed there during the last ice age. 20 new species of water organisms were found in it."

That sounds fascinating. Do you have a link or source so I can read more?
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 241
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the useful information Thegreenboot (and all).Perhaps I should restate my question to more accurately reflect who is doing the fleecing: Detroit AND Ferndale! But what I really needed was information on the feasibly of driving a well, and if it could be done in the first place. I just wanted to know, for instance, if there is ground water, how deep would one have to go to reach it? And could I use the well to pump toilet waste down into it when it ran dry? (JK, Lakesuperior! JK!) I guess I'll just take Crew's idea and run a hose next door. BTW Gistok, we are on a budget plan for gas, have a new high efficiency furnace and water heater, as well as uber insulation on top of setting the temp at 68 degrees in the winter.
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 1207
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bullet, honestly, if you have low flow toilets and newer showerheads, faucets, etc. you may have a faulty meter or a leak that you don't know about. A well in Ferndale is not a feasible alternative.
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Corktownmark
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Username: Corktownmark

Post Number: 301
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"more accurately reflect who is doing the fleecing: Detroit AND Ferndale!" you just can't give it up can you?
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 913
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With all the conservation crap you're doing, and yet you're still paying double or triple what the rest of us "wasteful" people are paying, and yet you still insist there's nothing wrong with your water use or the meter...well, I can't help but just laugh.
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Viziondetroit
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Username: Viziondetroit

Post Number: 1060
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If its's brown flush it down, If it's yellow, let it mellow.... Meet the Fockers
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 242
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are right Corktownmark, just Detroit. Ok, I'll give up on this idea for now, as the consciences seem to be that it may not work. What about towing a small iceberg up the Detroit River, and hauling chunks by trunk to my house? I remember a thread not long ago about ice delivery in Detroit. It's so crazy, it may work!
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 915
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alright, I'm calling shenanigans on this whole thing.
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Benjo
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Username: Benjo

Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Recently Eastpointe installed new water meters in every house that can be read from outside. The plumber who came to install it said his records listed that we had a 3/4" meter when we actually had a 5/8" meter installed. After clearing this up with the city, I got a credit for almost $400.
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 246
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Focusonthed, the idea of the iceberg came to me one day while floating in my backyard swimming pool: how much water could an iceberg produce if melted? No shenanigans, just genius
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3761
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This explains your crappy photos a little better.....
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 1334
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dude, might be time to shut down that hydroponic weed garden.
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Jiscodazz
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Username: Jiscodazz

Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit has the best water in the county and relative to other essential resources, we get it for damn cheap. Stop complaining about the cost and just use it less.
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Harsensis
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Username: Harsensis

Post Number: 243
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 1:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bullet, I think....I know you just love stirring it up. LOL

When we lived in Harper Woods our water bill was about 60 for 3 months. When we moved to GP Woods it jumped to 75 a bill. Them we moved to GP Farms and it went up to 120 a bill, but we do make our own water. The biggest part is the sewage that is tacked on to it. I also run the lawn sprinkler when needed and I hardly notice a difference.

(Message edited by harsensis on April 11, 2007)
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 1209
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bulklet, wait a second....backyard swimming pool? You have a backyard swimming pool and didn't tell us? DUDE! There's your excess water use!
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 250
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh. A minor detail, I thought. Half of the neighborhood kids are in there sometimes. I gotta run now, the car wash needs to open...
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 1210
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me guess, the car wash is in your driveway???

Do you run a water bottling operation in your garage as well?
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Detourdetroit
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Username: Detourdetroit

Post Number: 286
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 9:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regionalism is the only way!!! Water yes. But what about schools, taxes, elected officials, fire and police, prioritizing transportation and road building, cultural assets and entertainment/convention taxes?

Mr. and Mrs. Ferndale, I feel your pain and agree with you, but will you agree for a tit for tat? As much as I hate to say it, it may have to get worse before it gets better. SE Michigan's ridiculous patchwork of pride, politics and "place" is our downfall... I hear the glorious jangle of the Metro Government tax man a coming!
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 251
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crew, the bottled water is sold only at the ice rink. Detourdetroit, I think we can sum this thread up with your very profound post, Regionalism is the only way!!! (providing board members are from ALL communities).
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 918
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you guys haven't figured out this thread is BS yet, "here's your sign".
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 255
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Focusonthed, after all this, NOW you tell me? You guys really had me going!
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Big_daddy
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Username: Big_daddy

Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tried to drill a well in my basement for lawn watering purposes. My attempt failed. After busting a 4" hole in my concrete and using a 2" well auger I was able to go down 30 feet. All clay clay clay. No sand no water table. It was useless to go any deeper because a shallow well pump will only lift water about 25 feet. Feeling dejected, I filled the hole with concrete mix.
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 257
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds well thought out Big_daddy. Going through a basement would save about 8' or so of driving. Where about did you live? When we were on Detroit's east side there was nothing but blue clay under the top soil. In Ferndale there is sand from here to hell and apparently, no water. I wonder what farmers used?
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Big_daddy
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Username: Big_daddy

Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BM, I'm in city of Wayne. Found out from neighbors (after the fact) that a huge sewer line was put through the neighborhood behind me a few years before my project and they went down about 30 feet and it was all clay. I was hoping for enough water at about 20ft. but no luck. My cousin in Saline (city neighood)put in a well for watering. Works great and he only went down about 10ft. + the 8'basement. Greenest lawn in all of saline and no water & sewer fee only a electric (small) for running a 1/2hp pump.
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Jcdfde5
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Username: Jcdfde5

Post Number: 38
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BULL S@%T
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Bulletmagnet
Member
Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 261
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Big_daddy, makes me want to move there, how can I learn more?

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