Discuss Detroit Ľ Archives - Beginning January 2007 Ľ Decline of Neighborhoods & Kilpatrick's Plan ę Previous Next Ľ
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Mallory715
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Username: Mallory715

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 12:58 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey everyone, I'm a new poster but frequently read the threads on this website. I'm writing a paper for my urban planning class at the University of Wisconsin-Madison on an urban problem, its cause, and the proposed solutions. I want to target the decline of many (not all) of Detroit's neighborhoods and link it to the flight of the middle class after deindustrialization and 2 sets of racially-motivated riots. I'd like to address the New Detroit Neighborhood Initiative by Kwame as a potential solution. I'd love to hear some feedback from you guys- why do you think nearly half the population has abandoned Detroit since the 50s? What do you think of Kwame's neighborhood initiative? Also, I'd be interested in hearing about smaller community efforts to clean up their neighborhoods (I've got the Heidelberg project - I'm sure there are many others?)
Anyways, it seems like the majority of posters on this forum are well-informed, so I'd love to hear your opinions on this topic! Thanks in advance!
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Lmr
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Username: Lmr

Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 4:56 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, what a question. There are many answers and many people who can answer better than I. I'll give one reason and it's aside from race - that is lots of flat, cheap, buildable land + a lot of people who want to build new houses on it. Not everyone who moved to the suburbs shortly after WW II sold a house to do so. Quite a few who were raised during the depression never owned a house in the city, they had always rented, and when they finally could buy, they bought where the new construction was, which was often in the suburbs (my parents were an example).

If you want to see the same effect today, drive a few hours west here to the twin cities or to Rochester (Minnesota) and take a look at the building boom in the twin cities suburbs and Northwest Rochester.
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Jerrytimes
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Username: Jerrytimes

Post Number: 38
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 4:59 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would have to disagree. Most of the people who fred Detroit in the late sixties and seventies built these houses. All of my relatives that are over 45 lived in Detroit at one point and now every single one of them are in the suburbs.
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Goat
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Username: Goat

Post Number: 9355
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 5:03 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As indicated by Jerrytimes, Detroit had one of the highest ratios of home ownership to city population in the USA.

Sorry, I don't know KK's initiative.
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Yelloweyes
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Username: Yelloweyes

Post Number: 119
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 5:35 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People moved out for the same reasons they continue to move out or not move in. Crime, Schools, Highways, Taxes, and Race.

Everyone knows about the riots. The schools system drove out a lot of people do to cross - city bussing (I believe this to be the largest factor). Lower taxes, and the ability to get from the suburbs to the city jobs...highways.

Mayor Kilpatrik's Neighborhood plan may be a step in the right direction. I think it is one of those: Does anyone else have a better idea? - concepts. It might be part of the solution but only a small part. He needs to focus on the education. A middle class family wants a middle class school.

Discusion of race relations can go on forever, but I feel ultimatly crime/drugs drove out the middle class. Because not only did white people leave, but also middle class blacks.
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Alchemist5
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Username: Alchemist5

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 6:04 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately I would have to agree that race was a major player in suburban sprawl when it initially began in Detroit. Just living in the region it is apparent that many older adults still hold very racially driven opinions of Detroit. I feel these opinions and stereotypes will only change with younger generations that attempt to bridge the gap between races. The city now continues to attempt to operate at a capacity well beyond it's population size. Yellow eyes is right on the money though for generalizations about the problems "Crime, Schools, Highways, Taxes, and Race." The lack of investment in an efficient mass transit system and increased investment in highway development continue to hold Detroit back from being competitive in both quality of life and business attraction. I do believe Kwame is finally headed in the right direction. For the first time he gave a state of the city address that was real and to the point about crime and education. Everyone complains about Detroit closing schools, but when your population continues to decline it isn't feasible to keep these large facilities open.
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Blueidone
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Username: Blueidone

Post Number: 37
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 6:25 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did the building of the automotive plants in the suburbs have an impact? My family all worked at the GM Warren Tech Center in the early 60's. With no mass transit to speak of, I would think that some of the exodus was to be closer to work as the suburban plants and engineering centers were built.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5357
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 7:13 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I challenge the very popular idea that has been perpetuated for years that, initially, anyone was 'driven out' of the city. Schools, crime, etc...don't just magically "get bad" for no reason. Things don't get bad until money starts abanonding communities. Those issues only then became self-perpetuating, and self-fulfilling prophecies. It seems pretty clear that the initial panic/hysteria, which set everything into motion, was caused by little more than the success of the Civil Rights Movement. Quite frankly, it was integration that set everything into motion.
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65memories
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Post Number: 383
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Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 10:03 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not integration, but the reaction to an integrated society...racism.
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Urbanoutdoors
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Username: Urbanoutdoors

Post Number: 185
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 10:52 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you have not looked at them already look at Thomas Sugrue's: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit. Also look at June Manning Thomas's Redevelopment and Race. As to the flight look at the FHA's funding of new suburban housing and the willingness of churches to accomodate those moving out to the suburbs. Also what happened as a cause of the decentralization and automation. Oh and Marygrove Colleges literary map and Detroit Bibliography. http://www.marygrove.edu/ids/

As for the local neighborhood initiatives Talk to Northwest Detroit Neighborhood Development. They focus on Brightmoor one of Detroits most blighted neighborhoods and have done a ton of work to help change the ways of the area. This area is now targeted in the plan I would be interested as to what they have found out for what will be the benefits to them under this plan.
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Lmichigan
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Post Number: 5358
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Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 11:10 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

65memories, that's what I meant. Integration was (and still is) and absolute necessity if we hope to fulfill our full economic potential in this nation. For those that are seemingly uneffected by the lock-out, still, of particular groups from areas of the economy that need their expertise, they are not able see this, but things could be much better than they are. Integration wasn't/isn't some fuzzy, amorphous liberal experiment, it's an economic and social necessity for a healthy, multi-cultural nation.

(Message edited by lmichigan on April 13, 2007)
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Yelloweyes
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Username: Yelloweyes

Post Number: 120
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 9:22 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not sure for what reason that factories (and company headquarters such as Chrysler) were built in the suburbs. But this definatly had a huge impact on where people resided. It most likely had to do with the price of the land and taxes. When these companies moved it made it that much easier for middle class/blue collar to flee the city, in addition the previous reasons.

Integration will be the challenge in the future of Detroit. Downtown has currently become a well integrated community. Southwest Detroit is also integrated. Does Kwame's plan address this issue? Will this spill over into the Neighborhoods? Will Detroit schools ever be integrated again?
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 275
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 12:53 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll tell you why we moved, no, were driven out: crime. I will agree with you Lmichigan, that things don't get bad on their own. Yes, it does feed on it self when the money starts to dry up and opportunities are lost. But I will take issue with you that this was the cultist for crime. I think the Great Depression would bear this out. I have lived many years in Detroit with little or no money, little or no employment, dropped out of High school, and was living on my own at 17. This never once led me to a life of crime, only to try harder. By your own admission you have stated that integration was the catalyst for the exodus of people and business. So why is it still the answer?
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 6762
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 2:53 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mallory715, I don't have any more answers than those given here. However, in your paper I think it would add perspective if you (side by side) compared the relative success of Detroit's next-door neighbor, Dearborn. Dearborn is home to one of the Big 3 and has maintained growth, increasing property values, safety and good schools during the same years that Detroit imploded - all while a stone's throw from Detroit. Dearborn has been a melting pot, from rich to lower middle class, nice neighborhoods to marginal, a variety of ethnic groups save for (until recently) African Americans, and excellent city services and administration. Dearborn grew in approximately the same proportions that Detroit did, but without the severe declines. Successful folks in Dearborn have invested in the community's arts/attractions, much the same as Detroit. Dearborn has a rich heritage of religious backgrounds, including the largest mosque in the world outside the Middle East. Most, if not all, of Dearborn's churches remain open and serving the faith for which they were originally constructed.

I hope this helps.
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Mallory715
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Username: Mallory715

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 5:46 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you so much for the responses, it really helps to hear so many different perspectives. I'm tending to side with Lmichigan, that the problems of underperforming schools, increased crime, poor city services don't just "happen"... I think that these are a direct result of the tax base erosion caused by nearly 1 million people leaving the city in a 50 year span. I'd be interested to hear from some residents who still live in the city, or have chosen to move to the city and their reasons for doing so. Taxes are higher in Detroit than almost all other suburbs, and yet the suburbs provide much better services. Are there some neighborhoods that are a success (beyond Palmer Woods, Indian Village, etc... more middle/ working class areas that have survived?)
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Yelloweyes
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Username: Yelloweyes

Post Number: 123
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 6:13 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mallory:

My wife and I recently moved to the city (East English Village) three years ago. We didn't realize how high the taxes were (first house). As a recent college grad I lived downtown for the entertainment/nightlife aspect. The main reason for moving here was the quality of homes for the price comparable to the suburbs. Also not driving a long distance to our jobs was a deciding factor. At the time we were not on planning on having children, but things have changed and we may move within the next five years, to a place with better schools, and parks.
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Eric_w
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Username: Eric_w

Post Number: 106
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 6:29 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"People moved out for the same reasons they continue to move out or not move in. Crime, Schools, Highways, Taxes, and Race. "
Pretty much says it all
Crime-after the 1967 riot crime spiraled out of control- murders,gang violence and lack of the city government's response were key.
Taxes: Taxes too high & poor services-not a lot of bang for the buck.
Schools-went downhill from the 70's thru today-Detroit schools are woefully inept in preparing their students for college or life after highschool.
Race-as the black population increased more crime,less safety as a result many fled to safer areas,there can be no dispute that many,many formerly safe neighborhoods turned into havens for drugs, gangs, thuggery & other crime which was accepted by the residents in those areas & continues to this day.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 871
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 6:29 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yelloweyes, there are ways you can get into better schools and still live in the city (even if the school district only allow residents from that township).
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Firstandten
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Username: Firstandten

Post Number: 86
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 7:32 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is my take on what happen to Detroit over the past 50 years. Causes in my opinion are racism, the economics of the auto industry and the public educational establishment.
Back when African-Americans were basically confined to a few neighborhoods primary inside of E/W Grand Blvd. the auto industry boon sent blacks up from the south in such numbers that it put stress on those areas. At the same time the x-ways broke up such areas like black bottom. At the same time the x-ways were giving whites opportunities to buy homes cheaply in the suburbs. The fact that blacks could now go into other neighborhoods in Detroit and purchase homes because of the good paying auto jobs should have been a good thing. Racism being what it is, whites began to move out based on a perceived tipping point in terns of number of black families in the area. If there werenít rules regarding residency at the time with the city and school district the exodus would have been worst . In the years before the 67 riots there was a lot of racial tension and tension between the black community and the police. Due to the fact that the auto industry was going well masked just how bad Detroit was getting. After 67 the white exodus accelerated and drugs flooded the community . Donít get me wrong there has always been drugs in the city but after 67 there was a noticeable difference in the amount of illegal drugs in the city and of course with drugs you get a lot of crime.

As long as the auto industry was going ok we could continue to mask Detroitís problems but when the industry hit the skids the school system which did a decent job of preparing people to work in the factories became a liability.As a result the devastation in many of Detroitís neighborhoods is nearly complete.

People will come back to some areas near the riverfront and near downtown. However I donít see the city particularly the central part of the city coming back for a long time. I donít know whatís going to spur the activity. manufacturing is not and wonít be the factor it once was, you canít depend on the public sector to get us out of this and DPS is ill equipt to train a new generation of young people for 21st century careers. It doesnít make sense to put new housing in an area if that person has to hop three buses to go to the suburbs to work. In the few areas that are going well we must be careful not to over tax
those residents to the point where they feel the need to leave Detroit.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 162
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 7:57 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yelloweyes, can you elaborate on the "parks" comment a little more? I'm curious what you want from a park that, say, Balduck doesn't offer. Short of Rochester or Farmington, I don't know where in the suburbs you'd find a nicer park.
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 1898
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 8:20 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Short of Rochester or Farmington, I don't know where in the suburbs you'd find a nicer park.

What parks near Rochester do you consider nice, sincerely?
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 164
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 8:38 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was thinking of Stony Creek, but I guess most of that's technically Washington Township.
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Jimaz
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Post Number: 1900
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Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 8:41 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah, thanks. Bloomer's nice too.
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Karl
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Post Number: 6772
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 10:29 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Firstandten, may I add a key item to your well-thought-out post:

During the time of massive exodus from Detroit, there was also a massive breakdown of the family unit. No fathers in homes, as a result no father to teach home maintenance/repair. At the same time there was a shift from home ownership to renting, thus less regard for the property.

Along with the things dads teach about the house, there was no dad to teach the other things dads teach - sports, leadership, respect for women, help with homework, etc. While mom struggles to work/take care of kids & house, the kids are running their own show, sometimes leading to drugs, early sex, more kids, booze, etc.

Detroit's own Temptations memorialized the problem in their famous song "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" and they weren't talking about Mick Jagger.
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Urbanoutdoors
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Username: Urbanoutdoors

Post Number: 188
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 12:31 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I live in Corktown Detroit's oldest neighborhood and must say that there are many suburbanites that moved back in and the taxes are for some reason lower in this area. This area is very working class and is the most convenient neighborhood to downtown. I also grew up in the university district and stayed in private inner-city schools throughout my education. Although that area is much more white collar it still is a great thriving diverse neighborhood.

My grandfather owned two liquor stores very close to where the riots started. My family has stayed in the area since the 40s and has watched the area at Linwood and Grand Blvd change from all white to a very integrated area in the 60s. for the past 25 years they have been the only white family on the block. My grandfather always had the means to move out but decided to stay. His motto has always been, this is the area that I had my business's this is the area we will stay.

The neighborhood initiatives are a step in the right direction and it has been along time coming to have any mayor propose any new incentives for neighborhoods and concentrate on a rebuilding effort that is not just a quick fix development.
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Lmichigan
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Post Number: 5364
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 12:52 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Urbanoutdoors, out of curiosity, since I spent the first 5 years of my life at Clairmount and 12th, what liquour stores did you grandfather own.
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Urbanoutdoors
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Post Number: 189
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 1:09 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The one at lamothe and linwood and the one at 14th and lothrop. Both closed about 5 years after the riots but my family still stays on lothrop till this day.
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Yelloweyes
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Username: Yelloweyes

Post Number: 125
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 7:56 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As for parks:

Balduck is a nice park and I have been there many times. I was talking about the parks on the waterfront in Grosse Pointe and St. Claire Shores, as well as Stony Creek (We won't move that far out). Or we might move out of the state all together.
We haven't moved yet, or is our house even for sale, I was just saying that those are the main reasons why we will move.
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 99
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 8:51 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl, re Dearborn you left out the part about Dearborn's Mayor Orvil Hubbard being a Racist and promoting Racist policies in Dearborn for over 30 years...Dearborn has always been about Racism specifically towards Blacks, Arabs were tolerated and have prospered.
Hard ass law enforcement and civic proactivism have kept Dearborn a progressive city.
regards
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Detroitplanner
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Post Number: 1184
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 9:01 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My biggest question would be if there is such a focus on six neighborhoods, does that mean the dozens of other neighborhoods in the City should just give up on trying to get more than just the basic services?

For example, the alley behind the stores by my house is slowly filling up with tires and other junk gets dumped there because the City has moved to so few bulk pick up days and has made the whole process pretty confusing by changing the rules about these matters several times within a two year period. What are my chances of even being able to get City Hall's attention (heck I can't get it now; and I know several of the council!)

I'm more than willing to clean the mess up myself, but don't know how to even dispose of the mess. I sure don't have the means (I have a small sedan) to haul tires and rotted old mattresses to a dump!
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Trainman
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Post Number: 381
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 9:07 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe if Kilpatrick welcomed the whites in his city that things would get better?

It was his fault that SMART left Livonia because he refused to come to Livonia city hall and fight for the whites as per my request by a letter sent to him by me. If he did then Livonia would still have the SMART buses and Detroit would still have a thousand bus rides per day to jobs. Also, SMART would have more jobs for the bus drivers and mechanics.

DY'ers, please make sure mayor Kilpatrick gets the message that he must come to Livonia city hall and fight for SMART.

Or, he should be voted out of government.
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Parkguy
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 9:15 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that the problems with disinvestment in Detroit go back much further than 50 years. The first big building boom in Detroit was from 1880--1900, when the areas between downtown and Grand Blvd. were built. The demand for instant housing was so intense that wood frame houses were thrown up overnight, often with one house on the street and another on the alley. There was no need for driveways, and land was very expensive, so houses were built only four or five feet apart. They were poorly built, crowded firetraps. This is the ring of burnt-out, abandoned houses you see as you leave downtown. The next big wave of building came between 1900 and 1930, when money was no object. In the 1920's outlying areas like Rosedale Park were added-- they had been developed as upscale suburban enclaves. Other outlying areas like Brightmoor, which was a low-economic area with no water or sewer system in some parts, begged to be annexed by the city, so that services could be added. Areas like Brightmoor now pay the price for the way they were developed 80 years or more ago. Then, in the early '50's (if I remember correctly) the region made a huge study of projected growth patterns with the Club of Rome, a major think-tank. They projected that the region would grow to something like eight million population by 2000. That's when the network of freeways and an expanded sewer and water system were planned and constructed. The water/sewer more than anything else ALLOWED growth on the fringes. Of course, the gas crisis in the '70s and other factors stopped the population growth, but the system for expanding the region was already underway, so builders took advantage of it. Cheap land, new infrastructure, and a population all too willing to leave the crumbling inner-ring to fall apart and burn made for quick change. Add to that racial hatred, profiteering block-busting real estate agents, rising crime and drugs, a declining school system, a tax base that was being sucked dry by people and businesses fleeing to newly-open areas where they could avoid the costs of metropolitan living (while still enjoying the benefits)... and you have a recipe for what we have today. On top of that, we were well into a massive change from an industrial to a post-industrial world, but we didn't know it! When people talk about the reasons they or their families left Detroit, they are telling personal stories-- sometimes painful stories, sometimes happy stories. These events happened, though, because of trends and forces that were set in motion more than 100 years ago. (Don't rely on my dates or numbers for your project!)
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Karl
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Post Number: 6775
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 10:20 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chuckles,

Of course Hubbard played a part - but oddly, civil rights leaders chose places like Washington, DC and Selma, Alabama rather than Dearborn to push their agenda. Was the rotund motormouth mayor too big to handle? Or were the civil rights leaders intimidated by a seemingly content citizenry in Dearborn (many former Detroiters) who they figured might like things the way they were (compared to the rioted ruins next door) and would fully support their elected leaders? At one time, I believe he held the record for longest-serving US mayor (42 years?)

Much more on Dearborn & Mayor Hubbard, with a bias easily discernible right in the title: Orvie - The Dictator of Dearborn - The Rise and Reign of Orville L. Hubbard by David L. Good, Wayne State University Press, 1989.

Regardless, the contrasts/causes seem startling when viewed side-by-side, and whatever the reason, Detroit is a ghost of its former self while Dearborn has continuously thrived through this day. IMO Dearborn provides riveting perspective on any writings pertaining to the rise/fall of Detroit, racial issues in the COD, and success/failure of city administrations during the period 1950-present.
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 102
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 10:58 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl, yes I agree and would add that we can say the same for Garden City,Dearborn Hts., Wayne, Warren, Ferndale, Hazel Park, Oak Park, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Troy, Livonia, Redford, Taylor and on and on and on and on....

so I suspect it speaks volumes about Detroit...
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Karl
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Post Number: 6776
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 4:58 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chuckles, not quite.

One significant difference with Dearborn: Dearborn held, and still holds, the world hdqtrs and major manufacturing/product development for one of the Big 3. If I'm not mistaken, the Rouge complex was, at one time, the largest industrial complex on earth.

None of the other burbs even come close to holding such close similarities to Detroit.
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Karl
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Post Number: 6777
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 5:06 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mallory, here's a nice link describing the Rouge complex and its place in Dearborn/Detroit/American history.

http://info.detnews.com/histor y/story/index.cfm?id=189&categ ory=business
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Urbanize
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Post Number: 901
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 6:52 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"One significant difference with Dearborn: Dearborn held, and still holds, the world hdqtrs and major manufacturing/product development for one of the Big 3. If I'm not mistaken, the Rouge complex was, at one time, the largest industrial complex on earth."

It still is if I recall. Even the Queen of England enjoys it. Only lost is the Rouge Steel Plant. Otherwise, still going good.
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Livernoisyard
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Post Number: 3046
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 7:50 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Most, if not all, of Dearborn's churches remain open and serving the faith for which they were originally constructed.


Not so. Dearborn's Catholic parishes are on the verge of closing or are essentially mission churches, like some in the burbs were during the 1800s. St. Barbara's, very near where my grandparents lived, has been sharing a priest with St. Cunagunda in SW Detroit since the 1990s, possibly even earlier. Its parochial school closed well before that.

Other Dearborn/Dearborn Hts. parishes have closed/sold their schools too. Since the baby boomers went through the school systems, even some public schools closed there and became community centers and the like.
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Paulmcall
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Username: Paulmcall

Post Number: 89
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 10:47 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All I've heard is talk from Kwame. Where is the money and where is the action?
The Grand River- Greenfield area still looks like crap.
Oh yeah, don't forget the red lining and real estate scare tactics that got people to leave in droves.
I didn't mind living next to blacks what I minded was living around low class people that had low class values. It's like if you had a choice between living next to Dave Bing or Mike Tyson. If you've got a lot of knuckleheads like Mike Tyson living next to you, you're gonna want to book out of town.
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Detroitej72
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Username: Detroitej72

Post Number: 528
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 1:28 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote: Oh yeah, don't forget the red lining and real estate scare tactics that got people to leave in droves.

______________________________ ___________________

I hate to correct you, but Kwame, the clown council, and even Jen have no control over "red lining" and block- busting of which you speak.

You can thank Corporate America for that.
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Wsukid
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Username: Wsukid

Post Number: 161
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 2:51 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

for me there are a couple reasons that stick out for the exodus of people leaving the city

1. annexation- because of the strict rules Mich has over annexation it land locked Detroit and could not extend it to extend its tax base which means services would erode from lack of tax base. thus some of the services neighborhoods have today.

2. lack of representation from the city council- lack of knowledge from members of city council. when the freep reported the detailed situations about the state of some neighborhoods like davison, the council reacted like they were shocked. So with the council in a daze like they dont know about the state of neighborhoods, it hurts neighborhoods to not have close representation in their community. Especially if your neighborhood doesnt have the means like wealth or sheer population to back or voice up to be heard.

mass transit-freeways- alot of people already wrote about this so I wont go too deep. but lack of transit accessability hurts the city and forces people to move where the jobs are which hurts neighborhoods
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5368
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 3:37 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Annexation wasn't an historical, or modern excuse for the population loss. There are many smaller, land-locked big cities (i.e. Baltimore, DC, Milwaukee...) that didn't experience quite the exodus that Detroit did. In fact, Detroit's one of the larger of the older cities, land-wise. It's not lack of land that's contributing, significantly, to population loss.
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 103
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 6:37 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl, the connection I make from the Rouge plant and FoMoCo Headquarters being located in Dearborn is Tax Base...coupled with a Civic responsibility to maintain a Status Quo of Quality living, etc...IMO this is what preserved Dearborns status thru the 50's, 60's, 70's.

That is the only significant link I can make...

regards

PS
Dearborn was guilty of massive Redlining and Race discrimination during those years and now look at what you have......
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 6782
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 10:36 am: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chuckles,

You said: "Dearborn was guilty of massive Redlining and Race discrimination during those years and now look at what you have......"

Have we not established many times on these threads that the same went on in Detroit on a more massive scale?

I mention Ford/Rouge because Dearborn was the only burb to share this similar part of the auto industry on as massive a scale as Detroit - yet emerge virtually unscathed (in comparison to Detroit) from that turbulent period.

Please define "now look at what you have...."
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 105
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 3:18 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl, is there any viable comparison between Dearborn vis a vis Highland Park and all their Chrysler connections thru the 50's 60's 70's 80's...

Ford Rouge, Ford HQ are very big medicine...

and yet I am having trouble believing they are why Dearborn remains so desirable as a community yet today.

regards

(Message edited by chuckles on April 16, 2007)
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 6787
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 5:25 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chuckles, perhaps you've misunderstood my point. I don't think Ford caused Dearborn to remain desireable any more than Chrysler caused Highland Park not to remain so. I was simply encouraging Mallory to closely compare the 2 as he/she wrote about Detroit and analyzed theories.

Did the fall of the steel mills take down Gary? Did the departure (or remaining) of any large industry take down/maintain a city? Because of their side-by-side proximity, it is easy to compare - as both have been thru identical crises.
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Chuckles
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Username: Chuckles

Post Number: 106
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 5:49 pm: ††Edit PostDelete Post†††Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info Karl, appreciated.

regards

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