Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Ford: Quality equal to Toyota (Detnews) Previous Next
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Gmich99
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Username: Gmich99

Post Number: 183
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In terms of initial vehicle quality, Ford Motor Co. is in a statistical dead-heat for second place with Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. and Nissan Motor Co., according to a new study the Dearborn automaker plans to release today. Honda Motor Co. is the quality leader.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070418/A UTO01/704180425
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 6816
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gmich99, this is great news.

However, unless Ford (and hopefully Chrysler & GM) can sway Consumers Reports to parrot this message for at least 5 years (like they've done for Japanese automakers) then the general public will view this as nothing more than a fluke.

Unfortunately, much of the rest of the country views The Detroit News as a puppet of the Big 3, while relying on Consumers Reports as gospel.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 954
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wtf? really?
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 1993
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My Ford Explorer has been a great buy from a quality perspective, my Jeep Liberty is another matter.

I have owned 2 Toyotas, 2 Mitsubishis, 1 Volvo and a bunch of American cars. In my opinion, the quality has not always been equal, but it is now.
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Detroit53
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Username: Detroit53

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No one wants to see Detroit reclaim the road more than I do. Detroit has had 25+ years to get its act together and face the threat. Outside of MI every other car is evidence that Honda Toyota Nissan succeeded where Admiral Yammamoto(sp?) failed.
God grant that Ford ever builds a car that performs like the 95 Nissan I drive. 260k miles and doesn't burn oil.
Am I wrong?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2035
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Unfortunately, much of the rest of the country views The Detroit News as a puppet of the Big 3, while relying on Consumers Reports as gospel"

yeah, that's the attitude I've encountered not only toward the News, but the Free Press and J.D. Power & Assoc., too - basically any news out of Detroit is viewed as skewed in favor of the automakers - that's where my question about the anti-Detroit/anti-Michigan attitude came from (on a different thread)

(Message edited by lilpup on April 18, 2007)
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1200
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ford pays a consultant for a study and the study reveals Ford has good quality. Is this really news or marketing?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2036
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^see what I mean?
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 6831
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The target to impress is Consumers Report. Their Frequency Of Repair reports are death to the Big 3. For instance, how can GM build a model like the Suburban for as long as it has and still have it rated as "far worse than average" in nearly every category?
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Nyct
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Username: Nyct

Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

just leased an '06 ford fusion in august. no complaints here. i love her more and more each day.
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Detroit53
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Username: Detroit53

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 1:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Read "The Reckoning" by David Halberstam; What has changed since that book was written?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2037
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 1:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think there are incredibly mixed signals from the buying public. There's a lot of crying about being green and fuel economy but sales numbers and market demand don't seem to support it.
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Zephyrprocess
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Username: Zephyrprocess

Post Number: 341
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 1:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

For instance, how can GM build a model like the Suburban for as long as it has and still have it rated as "far worse than average" in nearly every category?

Over the lifespan of the Suburban, how many models competed against it in the "Ginormous Multipassenger Truck" category?
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 6833
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 1:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lilpup - on the surface you are right. But if you track Consumer Reports over a long period of time, the sales figures track the ratings.

Sometimes during short-term fads (Escalade, etc) it appears that consumers are not following the reports. Look long-term. Toyota = excellent longterm ratings = excellent longterm sales. Etc.
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Luckycar
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Username: Luckycar

Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 1:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Read "The Rise and Fall of the US Auto Industry" by Brock Yates.It's 20 years old,could have been written last week.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 6835
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 2:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(I've posted this B4) In the '60's I recall going as a child on the Rouge Tour. Along with all the Scouts, schoolkids and tourists, on every tour were 10-15 Japanese businessmen in dark suits. How well I remember thinking "how great that they finished their business in Detroit and had time to come on this fun tour."

Oy vey.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 4243
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 2:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The American consumer isn't as smart as you all would like to think. Going by the words of a few magazines shows one's ignorance.
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Defendbrooklyn
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Username: Defendbrooklyn

Post Number: 113
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 2:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This study means nothing...The cars surveyed were 2007's...Its not shocking to have minimal problems with a 4-month-old automobile.

Reliability is all about 5 and 10 years down the line. While you are on your commute today pay attention to all the older vehicles on the road. You will notice that the majority of 10-15 year-old cars are foreign. The numbers will be a bit skewed because we are in Detroit and most people buy domestic. After living in NY and MASS it was very clear what cars lasted and what cars did not.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 6837
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 2:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patrick may be right, but before jumping to that conclusion, check out Consumer Report's circulation #'s and how many (!!) folks they get to participate in their Annual Auto Issue surveys. It is pretty staggering, along with the data/testing they've accumulated over the years.

And now they're easily/inexpensively accessible on the web.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 4244
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 3:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The way I see it is like this...will you jump off the bridge just because everyone else is? That is how I see the bulk of consumers in America today.
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 4:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have never trusted consumer reports. their testing/quality ranking methodology has never been explained to my satisfaction. too many times i have seen cars with high reliability rankings have "worse than average" predicted reliability for the current year
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 6838
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 5:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rb336, I agree. I mention CR simply because the sales figures seem to track their ratings, year after year.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1535
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 6:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"In terms of initial vehicle quality, Ford Motor Co. is in a statistical dead-heat for second place with Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. and Nissan Motor Co."

Fine, but where does each manufacturer stand with its CAFE ratings? Quality is nothing without the MPG to go with it.
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56packman
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Username: 56packman

Post Number: 1238
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 8:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroitplanner says "Ford pays a consultant for a study and the study reveals Ford has good quality. Is this really news or marketing?"


I know what you mean--Ford's vehicles are always the best selling in the world (according to them), best in class, best selling in class, yet they are always no.2 in sales. Ask any Ford employee, they'll recite chapter and verse out of the Ford times.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1207
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't get me wrong, my last three cars have been Fords; and they served me well. However, you have to always consider the source of your data, who processed it, and why to determine if there are any bias to it. If this report found that "Ford cars have the quality of a Mackinaw Island horse turd, but smell worse and are less attractive" Would they publish their findings? NO! They would however fire the company that made the report and not pay them.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2042
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"They would however fire the company that made the report and not pay them."

Why do you assume this? Not only do you insinuate Ford is lying about the good survey results but also that they don't learn from negative results and willy nilly dishonor contractual obligations. Of course they aren't going to release negative survey results - what company would?
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 1046
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:08 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl,

Consumer Reports rated the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan higher than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
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Scottr
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Username: Scottr

Post Number: 491
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:18 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

This study means nothing...The cars surveyed were 2007's...Its not shocking to have minimal problems with a 4-month-old automobile.



hence the reason its called 'initial vehicle quality', you're confusing initial quality with reliability. And since ALL the vehicles are new, it is a valid study. If you were comparing a 4 month old Ford to a five year old Toyota, then it would mean nothing.

I would agree, however, that I would like to see the stats on the same vehicles in 3-5 years.
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Defendbrooklyn
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Username: Defendbrooklyn

Post Number: 115
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 2:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oooops my bad for jumping the gun...

The Milan and Fusion may have been rated higher then the Camary and Accord (i have not checked) but they are also new models...

CR always states that "new models" are tricky to rate because of limited owner feedback. CR is all about trends...Time reveals all.

Scottr says it best...I would also like to see the same type of study in 3-5 years...
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Beavis1981
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Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 547
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 3:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the Mercury Milan, Ford Shelby GT-500, Ford Expedition EL and Lincoln Navigator

Seroiusly people read first! The last 3 are high-end vehicles. Also, I think they are only going to make like 5000 shelbys.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2045
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 3:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

because of limited owner feedback


which means that CR's ratings really are a perception based popularity contest, not verifiable scientific data involving testable failures

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