 
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 411
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 2:46 pm: |    |
Ragged-
Trolls live under bridges, don't they?
Not really sure what you mean when you say easy. Is that in regard to the op or what?
As for Jt and I, we agree to disagree. How is that being easy? He made his points, I made mine. Neither of us went too far (as far as I'm concerned) and I am not sure you understand that.
You confuse me, but I'm waiting to be educated here, so blast away as you usually do.
By the way, do you have something substantive to add to the original context of the thread or are you just fanning the flames too?
Lastly, don't you mean east_detroit, not east_side? You really need that nogg........... |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 74
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 3:37 pm: | |
Bearinabox said: I'm pretty sure Crumbled_pavement is being sarcastic. Silas, on the other hand, really is that stupid.
Yea, I was. But I'm sure I intimated some people's real feelings on the subject. I'll be glad when the day comes that all people look at the heart of individuals and judge them from that as opposed to equating the skin with the soul.
P.S.: Plymouthres, I can only judge you on the posts I've seen you make. I have only been here a short time and have not seen all of your posts. However, of the ones I've seen and especially in this thread, I appreciate your attitude and am glad there are others that lead the fight to look at the heart of a person and not just their complexion. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 412
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 3:56 pm: | |
Thank you C_p. You are correct and I'm only trying to help. Thanks also for the clarification. You have restored my faith in people.
Read my posts in the "Signs of racial differences" thread as you may get an even better insight into my idea of the way it is!
Keep on keeping it rel. Intimidation is good sometimes......
Blood is red, and we all bleed the same. At least from my point of view. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11110
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 4:23 pm: | |
quote:Yes, on this issue I am a bit sensitive, which probably has to do with the fact that I have a good number of law enforcement friends who work very hard and are always being crucified by generalizations like the one you made. Also, I never said ALL of the investigative work was good (or bad), that was your line.
I do not believe that it is an all or nothing proposition as you believe. I think with investigative work it is logical, for random stops it is not. You are personalizing valid concerns over the practice. My only point is that it allows for abuse in random stop situations.
quote:As for the rest of your statements, you are really obfuscating what I said. I was just pointing out where you were a bit caustic. You act like I said something about you having no life, and I never did. Again, you take me way out of context!
The point was to point out that I am very happy in life contrary to your comment that I will be 'living a very lonely existence.' No harm done as that is your opinion.
quote:And no, you are not open to my opinions as you have elected to blow my balls of every time I have opined her, be it in this thread and the others where you have made statements and acquiesced. I have a relatively good reading comprehension and I can see your intent plainly.
Some of it is disagreement and some is overreacting on both parts. You are the one that blew this into something more by reacting so much to my comment that profiling is 'not necessarily' always good police work. Most of the time it is, but it is used in an abusive manner in cases.
quote:You, however, have never seen mine.
I disagree especially since I agreed above that profiling is often good police work.
quote:No reason to be sorry. Just try to do something constructive rather than create arguments that don't exist by taking my opinions out of context and adding words that I didn't use.
Again I would ask that you consider how you turned this into a big thing because I pointed out that 'racial profiling' is 'not necessarily' good police work. I consider that a comment that could spur conversation or a pissing match. It seems to me you made it the latter.
quote:Your last line says it all, you really don't have an idea about me.
Nor you me but you have made some assumptions about me and some assumptions about the tone of rather innocent posts.
quote:Thanks for at least admitting that.
No need to thank me but I ask that you consider the same when making assumptions about how caustic the intent of an innocent post really is.
I know I start a lot of junk but this was an issue that you escalated because of your incorrect assumptions that I may have been making blanket assumptions about your friends in PD.
Now as a side note I have ended friendships over the same thing due to a few officers with a largely racist view when doing their work. I have also maintained firendships with other people in DPD because I respect the work they do and realize that the majority of them aren't represented by the couple racist idiots I have known that have decided to work in DPD.
The vast majority are good, hard working people doing a job I would not be willing to do. When they profile for cases I understand that it is part of the work and a good tool to get criminals. I have also known a couple (the exception, not the rule) that have used is as a tool for harrasment. |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5383
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 6:44 pm: | |
quote:Statistics released by the FBI in November showed hate crimes in Michigan -- where reported incidents are third-highest in the nation -- increased for the fourth consecutive year in 2006. Reported incidents rose to 653, from 640 in 2005 and 556 in 2004.
WOW.... |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 414
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 6:49 pm: | |
Jt1-
If you knew me, you would know that I don't see much in the middle as I am quite a "black and white" type of person. It is a curse that I have suffered from all of my life and being that way has not served me well in all instances.
Unfortunately random stops do occur, and are part of police work. Whether they produce the results that we both have opinions on is a hotly contested issue, with valid points taken by both sides in any debate. Also, "not necessarily" is a bit vague of a answer, eh? I simply reacted with a bit more depth than you did, that's all. I try, very hard, never to engage in a pissing match as I barely have the time to respond with the solutions or opinions I try to provide on topic, let alone purposely engage in an argument. I have spent far too much time here explaining myself already, but I've tried to go the extra mile with you and that is stopping right now.
Again, if you knew me better, you probably would be able to understand my intentions easier. Also, having read an awful lot of your posts since February ( and before that as I lurked on this site for over a year before posting, for this very reason!), I know your sensitivity in regard to black/white issues. With 11000+ posts, that's pretty easy. With 400+ posts on my part, most regarding Fort Wayne, you wouldn't necessarily see that from my side, though. I take your tone as a whole, not from 1/1000th of your posts.
The "living a lonely life" reference was kind of like saying "good luck trying to get others to buy your logic. I think they may be more than a few who won't agree with you".
I never blew anything out of proportion, just commented on how I saw it vs. how you saw it. Too bad you took it that way as it was not my intent. I can't possibly express my opinion in any other way and try at the same time to be somewhat assertive. Another obvious fault of mine, I guess.
You do not start a lot of junk and, in fact, I have agreed with a good majority of what you said in past posts. I can see on the other issues, where we agree to disagree and that is fine with me.
I will refrain, in the future, from getting into these types of posts, particularly when you are involved, as I seem to strike a chord with you that doesn't occur with other people that post here. Obviously, with as many posts as you have, you are much better at this than I am and that's fine with me as well.
I never meant to infer that you were somehow not knowledgeable as far as police officers were concerned, either.
That being said, I know a lot of cops who get off on the authority thing as well, so who really knows what happens unless we are there as a witness for each and every case, which we both know would be impossible unless we were both cops?
Try to have a good holiday season despite of this altercation between us. I know that I will! |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3136
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 9:41 pm: | |
"My second one was towards TJ who has a history of generalizing Detroiters as being hostil towards whites."
Explain yourself, Jt1. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6902
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 11:06 pm: | |
Plymouthres,
I sorry but those folks in Livonia need to stop playing race cards pushing blacks and any other ethnic folks around. Thinking that this 6x6 mile whiteland is holy for "WHITES ONLY" residents. When the media posted something like that, there would be a public outcry and future protests. Nazi-Livonia need to stop living in the Jim Crow era and start living the 21st Century. America is no longer whitey nation. It is a melting pot of ethnic people putting their blood, sweat and tears to change this nation and the world.
For as I know about a "WHITES ONLY" city that its black population is 0.9% and slowly growing. It would be long that Livonia will get a large percentage of blacks. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6903
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 11:11 pm: | |
The city of Warren, MI. tried keep blacks out from their "WHITES ONLY" neighborhood for 30 years. But when its black population has reached over 9.9% over 13,000 mark. White Warren residents lost the battle. Now they have to accept blacks for moving into their communities including other ethnic folks. That also includes all of Dearborn, MI, too. |
Terryh
Member
Username: Terryh
Post Number: 621
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 11:21 pm: | |
Legally we can live or travel anywhere we want in our country, however that is not a good idea as Americans restrict one anothers freedom with their intolerant behaviour. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6907
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 11:27 pm: | |
Restrict one anothers freedom with their intolerant behaviour! What ever happen to LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS?
(Message edited by danny on December 22, 2007) |
Cynknight
Member
Username: Cynknight
Post Number: 101
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 11:27 pm: | |
Dear Danny - loved this part of your post - "More black folks are moving into Nazi-Livonia for they want good public schools, less violent crime, friendly neighbors, excellent public service and away from the ghettos." The truth is finally out - you're a real Livonia fan, after all.
While there are racists in Livonia, as there are in every village, town and city in the world, you realize that it's a city of friendly neighbors and that's why people of every race, color, creed and religion would enjoy living there. I like that. |
Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch
Post Number: 1086
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 11:54 pm: | |
So - in the eleven plus years that I have lived in Livonia, this is the third time I have heard that an actually "racist" event has taken place.
The old guy at the "Walmart" meetings, the apartment complex owner, and this guy.
That makes three out of 100,545 people.
(2000 census)
Danny, I'm not sure what happened between you and Livonia, but I wish you would not take it out on me, my family and my neighbors.
There are plenty of houses for sale in my neighborhood - if you know ANYONE who wants to buy one, move in and be my neighbor - let me know. |
Irish_mafia
Member
Username: Irish_mafia
Post Number: 1160
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 12:22 am: | |
Get off it. Livonia has nothing on Detroit regarding racism... Detroit is a primarily Black city that gives advantages in just about everything, legally or otherwise, primarily to Blacks.
Despite that extremely racist reality, a lot of well intentioned folks, White, Black, Mexican, Cuban, Native American, and Asian are still trying to help this city out.
Try focusing on what you can do to create the next big thing for this city instead of blaming outside entities that neither acknowledge nor respect your opinion. |
Apbest
Member
Username: Apbest
Post Number: 658
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 12:35 am: | |
I hate to break it to you mafia, but there is a fundamental difference between the kind of racism that disadvantages blacks such that are confined to many of the ghettohoods of the city and the supposed "advantages" which the city gives to blacks (which I really don't think is an assumption you can make)...it's just not comparable
besides, what's the point in trying to quantify racism or talk about it in comparative terms? It's not zero-sum. Racism is bad point blank and should be rejected whenever encountered; who cares which community is "more racist" (whatever that means)
(Message edited by apbest on December 23, 2007) |
321brian
Member
Username: 321brian
Post Number: 515
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 9:19 am: | |
Apbest,
Mafia hit it on the head with his last post and I think a lot of people around here know it.
Racism by any people is intended disadvantage a minority in a particular area.
Detroit does all it can to hire minorities (blacks not mexicans) and make the companies who work in and for the city hire them. I'm 99% sure there is a law on the books that a contractor and i think the casinos must have a a workforce made up of at least 51% Detroiters ie. blacks. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1186
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 10:25 am: | |
^^^It's the American Dream, remember? Majority rules. I'm sure it was the same way in Detroit during the 50s when whites were the majority. I really don't see it as much of a point when concerning a thread about racial discriminations. No one's being discriminated, they're just giving the majority crowd what they want. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11112
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 10:27 am: | |
quote:"My second one was towards TJ who has a history of generalizing Detroiters as being hostil towards whites."
Explain yourself, Jt1.
No need to explain. It is abundantly clear from your posts. It is a generalization you have made time and time again. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 510
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 10:44 am: | |
below is a link to the Michigan State Police web site for hate crimes.
It lists reported hate crimes up to 2005. There is a summary page, which breaks down crimes against blacks, whites, homosexuals, hispanic, etc.
The doc is 17 apges of Excel spreadsheet stuff. There ere 7 incidents in Livonia; 1 as anti homosexual, 4 anti black, 2 anti islamic.
In detroit there were 48 incidents; 21 against whites, 3 anti homosexual, 17 anti black, a smattering of anit islamic and anti hispanic
You can take a look for yourself, I think it tells quite a story. Also at the State Police site is a link for domestic violence. 70 thousand Domestic Assaults! 21,500 in Wayne County. 5352 in Oakland. 5093 in Macomb.
BTW, according to the State Police, the stats say there were 714 hate crimes in Michigan.
70,000 domestic assaults, 714 hate crimes,
http://www.michigan.gov/docume nts/msp/HateBias_176017_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0, 1607,7-123-1645_3501_4621-2729 4--,00.html |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 417
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 10:46 am: | |
Danny-
Re-read my post and you will see what I was trying to say. YOU sound racist when you make the NAZI-LIVONIA statement by lumping all whites into one category, that of racist. All of "us" are not racist, and that was my point. Some blacks are racist, too. If you bothered to read my post in the "Signs of racial differences" you would see some of my personally subjective views on racism.
Don't ever apologize to me, as you are entitled to your opinion. As a white guy, I was simply trying to point out your obvious hate for Livonia, and in turn, whites, as Livonia is composed predominantly of whites (according to your figures-99.1% white). Also, Jim Crow was applied widely in the south, although most of the "laws" were practised throughout the country, not just in Livonia.
By the way, terms like "whitey nation" and such do nothing to serve the cause of black folks and are, from my point of view, racist comments in and of themselves. Kind of like calling us "white honky MF'ers".
Ap & I_m-
I kind of agree with both you, but I would respectfully add to clarify. I work within the CoD every day. We are constantly sending out quotes for the improvements that we need bids on. Black contractors are given a "preference" over white contractors every day, and, frankly, white contracting companies have altogether stopped even applying as they view it as a waste of their time. (Again, this only pertains to my small part of the involvement that I have-larger projects may not have this dynamic, but I know the ones that we are dealing with do).
The flip side of that is that black contractors OUTSIDE the CoD don't get the breaks that white contractors do in the various white dominated areas, so when those types of awards are given in the CoD, they offset each other a bit(not 100% but a bit).
As far as the "disadvantaged blacks ....confined to many of the ghetto-hoods of the city" comment, I am not sure what the heck that means? People confine THEMSELVES and are not bound by anyone. There are laws in place(and enforced) today that were never enforced before, and there are many, many more black people that are successful because of them, so how does this not allow all blacks to move forward at a better pace than ever before? I just don't see the problem, and to not at least acknowledge that is dis-respecting those blacks who have improved their situation with their "sweat equity". Bad decisions equate with bad breaks, and perhaps we can agree that a large majority of those who are "confined" have done so to themselves.
After all, this is the 21st century, not 1850. Let's try to keep this in perspective.
This is not to say that racism has been extinguished, but I believe that there are many in the white community that have been "educated" and abhor racism just as much as blacks do. To keep dragging us back into the practices of the 19th century is just plain wrong, and makes one sound like a whiner.
No one here has offered any solutions, though, so aren't we all a part of the problem? We should be able to engage in truthful, factual, realistic conversations, but every time we broach this subject the wounds of the past get re-opened and the accusations fly as both sides retreat to their old ways of name calling and finger pointing and shouts of racism.
The day that we are able to have candid discourse on this subject will be the day that we all move forward, together, and the healing will begin. Until then the polar opposite racism will continue to drive us to the opposite sides that we currently live in.
Just my two cents. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3137
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 11:36 am: | |
"No need to explain. It is abundantly clear from your posts. It is a generalization you have made time and time again."
Yeah, I figured you'd retreat...we both know you can't back that one up...
We also both know that I, in fact, have a history of generalizing Detroiters as being hostile towards the suburbs...but you didn't say "suburbs", did you? You said "whites"...hmmm...sounds like somebody is GENERALIZING...
And even though I could burn you big time for such a hypocritical statement, Jt, I'm not going to... because I, unlike you, don't feel that there's any need for us to pretend as if we aren't aware that in SE Michigan, blacks tend to live in and near Detroit and whites tend to live in the suburbs and exurbs...it's unfortunate, but is what it is, and pretending otherwise is just dumb... |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 420
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 11:46 am: | |
Tj-
I am giving up with him(Jt1), as I said. He never even had the decency to respond to my last post, which I fully expected as well. I tried to extend the olive branch, much against my normal MO, in an effort to stop the back and forth, but to no avail.
As I leave for Arizona,I will always remember the pain that this area suffers because of the lack of honest, thought provoking candor. It seems that that type of communication is always lost and we can never agree on anything.
That is fine with me, as I have tried my last.
At least your point of view has been somewhat refreshing, even if I don't always agree with you. It is one of the ways that I learn and grow. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3140
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
^thanks and great post...good luck in Arizona |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2424
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 12:25 pm: | |
quote:below is a link to the Michigan State Police web site for hate crimes.
It lists reported hate crimes up to 2005. There is a summary page, which breaks down crimes against blacks, whites, homosexuals, hispanic, etc.
The doc is 17 apges of Excel spreadsheet stuff. There ere 7 incidents in Livonia; 1 as anti homosexual, 4 anti black, 2 anti islamic.
In detroit there were 48 incidents; 21 against whites, 3 anti homosexual, 17 anti black, a smattering of anit islamic and anti hispanic
Just so we're all on the same page...
Detroit population: 918,849 (2006 estimate)
*Black: 759,888
*Non-hispanic White: 96,479
*Hispanic: 44,105
The population breakdown was estimated using the 2000 census percentage estimates.
Livonia population: 96,736 (2006 estimate)
*Black: 919
*White: 92,335 (no breakdown offered of percentage of non-Hispanic white population)
*Hispanic: 1,664
I bet most of you didn't know that there are more white people in Detroit than Livonia.
Hate crimes per 100,000 residents
Detroit: 5
Livonia: 8
Anti-black hate crimes per 100,000 black residents
Detroit: 2
Livonia: 435
Anti-white hate crimes per 100,000 white residents
Detroit: 22
Livonia: 0
quote:Livonia has nothing on Detroit regarding racism...
Yeah, whatever you say. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 511
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 1:03 pm: | |
IheartD-
Nothing in the document singles out residents vs non residents; hence the conclusion you are trying to draw is both intellectually and mathematically flawed.
Stick to the topic. Don't skew the data if you want to be taken seriously. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11113
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 1:17 pm: | |
quote:I am giving up with him(Jt1), as I said. He never even had the decency to respond to my last post, which I fully expected as well. I tried to extend the olive branch, much against my normal MO, in an effort to stop the back and forth, but to no avail.
Res - I didn't respond because I inferred that you were done with the back and forth. I will happily respond in my quote by quote fashion if you would like but I assumed that we were pretty close to a middle ground and that things were for the most part resolved.
Just a little strapped for time right now but I will happily respond later. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11114
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 1:19 pm: | |
quote:Yeah, I figured you'd retreat...we both know you can't back that one up...
You are very incorrect here. No retreating just little patience for your hypocrisy.
quote:We also both know that I, in fact, have a history of generalizing Detroiters as being hostile towards the suburbs...but you didn't say "suburbs", did you? You said "whites"...hmmm...sounds like somebody is GENERALIZING...
You have interchanged the two many times. You have made yourself very clear on many posts.
quote:And even though I could burn you big time for such a hypocritical statement, Jt, I'm not going to... because I, unlike you, don't feel that there's any need for us to pretend as if we aren't aware that in SE Michigan, blacks tend to live in and near Detroit and whites tend to live in the suburbs and exurbs...it's unfortunate, but is what it is, and pretending otherwise is just dumb...
Looks like you are taking your typical 'I could burn you approach' when you know you are wrong. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11115
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 1:22 pm: | |
PS tj - You opended this with
quote:I hope people understand that we aren't all like this idiot...Livonia is not a racist community
But you love to generalize Detroit and Detroiters. If you tool the same approach towards the residents of Detroit you would be seen in a very different light. Given that you generalize Detroiters on a reular basis it is ridiculous that you ask people not do it for Livonia residents. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2427
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 1:36 pm: | |
quote:IheartD-
Nothing in the document singles out residents vs non residents; hence the conclusion you are trying to draw is both intellectually and mathematically flawed.
Stick to the topic. Don't skew the data if you want to be taken seriously.
Data not skewed at all my friend. I used the numbers that you provided. It was calculated in exactly the same way that they would do so if they bothered to go into such detail. You are free to calculate the details yourself to check my numbers... And possibly add more substance to the discussion than the rhetoric I just quoted from you. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 512
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 2:01 pm: | |
I encouraged people to check out the State Police data. I simply sumerized. If you want to make an meaningful statement about the data. The word resident was never used, hence you conclusion is flawed.
It is like proving the earth is flat by looking out your window.
Incomplete data review leads to incorrect assumptions. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2428
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 2:16 pm: | |
quote:I encouraged people to check out the State Police data. I simply sumerized. If you want to make an meaningful statement about the data. The word resident was never used, hence you conclusion is flawed.
Point being? That doesn't matter because I didn't get the population stats from that site. Sorry for that misunderstanding... All else remains the same. As I said, you are free to do your own calculations to check my work. Fact is that if you are going to make any inference on the crime counts for those two municipalities then this is the best way to have an "apples to apples" comparison.
But I apologize. Far be it from me to assume that the average Michigander should understand basic algebra. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3143
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 2:49 pm: | |
Jt1:
All I can tell you is the same thing that I and other forum members have told you on numerous occasions and just hope that it sticks this time....
When somebody generalizes, they are referring to a group of people AS A WHOLE, and not necessarily to every individual within the group.
As an example, note the difference between these two statements:
1st statement: "Basketball players are tall."
When someone says that basketball players, as a group, are tall, this means that generally, they are tall, but not necessarily always. The statement refers to the group as a whole, and not necessarily to every individual in the group. Hence, this statement is correct.
2nd statement: "Every basketball players is tall".
This statement, on the other hand, states a general rule but does not allow for any exceptions. By adding the word "every", the statement refers to each individual within the group, and not to the group as a whole. Hence, the statement is not correct.
And when someone on this forum says "Detroiters like this" or "Detroiters don't like that", only a fool would think that statement refers to every individual Detroiter without exception.
Now, I really posted this for the benefit of other forum members who aren't familiar with your tactics so they can see how you have been mischaracterizing my comments and those of some other posters.
I see no point in posting it for your benefit because I know it's not going to stick, and it's not because you aren't smart enough to understand it, Jt1. It's because you won't allow yourself to let it stick.
You always resort to "but you're generalizing" whenever somebody makes a statement that you don't like and cannot refute.
You do this instead of addressing the statement directly, because you feel that by attacking the statement this way, it enables you to win the debate without ever having to actually speak to the topic at hand.
In other words, you won't acknowledge the flaw inherent in this method of argument because you NEED this method of argument. Without it, you'd no longer be able to join in many of the discussions that you currently do. And that's fine, Jt1, as long as you're aware that you're fooling no one by employing such an elementary argumentative tactic. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 422
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 3:34 pm: | |
Jt1-
Please don't respond. Strike the courtesy comment as it was a bad choice of words. I do, however, stick to the rest of what I said after in reference to our disagreements.
Tj-
Thank you for the well wishes, and keep on keeping up the fight. You post extremely relevant stuff most of the time, and can banter in the great debate quite well. Your post #3143 is a summary of how frustrated I feel, too. The same encouragement on posting for Gnome, Iheart and the others who have added substantially to this topic here.
By the way, awesome factual info Iheart, which helps those who are part of this discussion solidify their conclusions and, therefore, their opinions. I respectfully disagree with you Gnome and I agree that the data weren't skewed, rather "presented." Try not to shoot the messenger rather than the message!
Now, this data begs the question of how does this information get translated to reality and toward a solution? For once, I have a feeling that this thread and others like it may actually be of some use! |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 513
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 4:30 pm: | |
HeartD,
You've combined undocumented census data from 2000 with partial crime stats from 2005 and demand that your point has increased the substance of the discussion.
You still stick to the baseless conclusion of residents vs non residents on which you base your argument. Doesn't work.
Please refer to the actual State Police pdf. I know it requires work as the doc is large, the print small and the data sub sets vast, but it you insist on drawing conclusions, I would point to the number of crimes committed against amierican indians in Romulus. Or the cross racial crimes in Wexford county.
The salient point is to refer to domestic violence crimes at 70k vs the 7oo+ hate crimes that include crimes against whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, homosexuals, jews and american indians.
Of those hate crimes, the range of offenses is equally broad. |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 75
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 4:58 pm: | |
Thejesus said: "And when someone on this forum says "Detroiters like this" or "Detroiters don't like that", only a fool would think that statement refers to every individual Detroiter without exception."
Very good, let me try this. Livonia residents are racist. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 430
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 5:10 pm: | |
Or maybe "some" or "a few" Livonia residents are racist. Certainly not all, as that is a gross overstatement and would include that 0.9% that Danny cited! |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2429
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 5:12 pm: | |
Please stop using words to which you don't understand the meaning. Never in this thread did I ever make any conclusion regarding those numbers.
I put the numbers into comparable metrics so that others who look at the numbers can make more sound comparisons than what you gave them. You can't compare Detroit, a municipality of nearly 1,000,000 people with the stats of Livonia, a community with less than 100,000 people without doing so.
That's like saying Toledo had 21 murders in 2006 and New York City had 597 murders. That is true, but what does it say? Nothing. What is also true is that Toledo had roughly 7 murders per 100,000 residents in 2006. New York City had roughly 7 murders per 100,000 residents in 2006 as well.
You have yet to offer any substance to this discussion since you posted those numbers. Thank you for the numbers, btw. It helped to put shed a bit more light on the discussion at hand. On that note, I really have nothing else to say on this subject. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2430
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 5:14 pm: | |
quote:Or maybe "some" or "a few" Livonia residents are racist. Certainly not all, as that is a gross overstatement and would include that 0.9% that Danny cited!
I think he's just pointing out Thejesus's flawed reasoning to him... Although I don't expect him to understand, but one can hope, right? |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 514
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 5:39 pm: | |
you did not put numbers into comparable metrics. That's the point.
you draw conclusions based on misreading the data, then instead of just saying, "oops" you go on the attack.
sorry, doesn't wash.
You profess to not draw conclusions, yet state with no supporting equations that:
"Hate crimes per 100,000 residents
Detroit: 5
Livonia: 8
Anti-black hate crimes per 100,000 black residents
Detroit: 2
Livonia: 435
Anti-white hate crimes per 100,000 white residents
Detroit: 22
Livonia: 0
----------
When were there 435 hate crimes commited in Livonia? You argu the world is flat and cide those who don't agree, retreating into a passive/agressive "I really have nothing else to say on this subject."
I do not mind honest debate, but dancing the numbers around does not serve to clarify anything it only serves to heighten the level of discord. |
Missnmich
Member
Username: Missnmich
Post Number: 634
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 8:12 pm: | |
I believe he means 4.35 |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3144
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2007 - 11:00 pm: | |
"Very good, let me try this. Livonia residents are racist."
See, Jt1, this clown Crumbled_Pavement gets it...why don't you? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6908
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 9:48 am: | |
Livonia residents are more racists than Warren, MI.
You all think that my words are not true. Tell that to a black resident who are now living in the white city who had been recieving threats from a white racist neighbor.
Livonia has a bad rep on race relations against blacks and ethnic folks for quite a few years and its getting worse then ever. Blacks and ethnic folks want to move there but get a bum steer from a few racists folks and its racially profile police force. To all of Livonia folks still under the Jim Crow attitude PLEASE CUT IT OUT! There are blacks still living and working in your city and they are the ones who made your city what it is today.
Face it Livonia residents. Blacks and ethnic folks are slowly moving into your cookie cutter neighborhoods and you all must welcome them with open arms. It's too late to cloak your city with Jim Crow so deal with it. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2431
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 10:07 am: | |
quote:When were there 435 hate crimes commited in Livonia? You argu the world is flat and cide those who don't agree, retreating into a passive/agressive "I really have nothing else to say on this subject."
One last time. Livonia has 4 / 919 = 4.35 x 10-3 hate crimes directed towards a black person per black resident. Detroit has 17 / 759,888 = 2.24 x 10-5 hate crimes directed towards a black person per black resident.
Because we all aren't mathematically inclined... 4.35 x 10 -3 is a MUCH larger number than 2.24 x 10-5...
Detroit has 21 / 96,479 = 2.18 x 10-5 hate crimes directed towards a white person per white resident. This is also a very small number compared to 4.35 x 10 -3. You could have taken a pocket calculator out and verified this yourself.
Now, what don't you understand? Nevermind, don't answer that. After this I don't really care if you understand it or not. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11116
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 11:17 am: | |
tj - You still have not addressed the question why you ask that people not assume this is representative of all Livonia (which it is not) but you don't give the same benefit of to Detroiters when discussing the residents of the city.
Why the double standard?
No tactics as you like to state, just a straight question that you never answer. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 516
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 11:54 am: | |
So instead of 435, the real figure is 4.35!
gosh, a difference of 431.
Thank you for clarifing how wrong you were. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2432
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 12:34 pm: | |
quote:So instead of 435, the real figure is 4.35!
gosh, a difference of 431.
Thank you for clarifing how wrong you were.
Thank you for clarifying that you are an idiot. I guess the constant spelling errors should have been my clue (despite each post being run through a spell check in the post preview!). My bad for giving you the benefit of the doubt. Please never again comment on anything statistically related if you don't know the difference between 4.35 x 10-3 and 4.35.
This is really an elementary concept. If you don't understand (which you still obviously don't), you could have easily asked me to explain and I would have been happy to do so for you. I get paid to explain this stuff. I would have explained this to you for free. But to understand anything I might say to you regarding this, you must first understand that there is a very big difference between 4.35 x 10-3 and 4.35. You don't, so I won't even bother anymore. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 517
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 1:20 pm: | |
This is your original post:
---
I bet most of you didn't know that there are more white people in Detroit than Livonia.
Hate crimes per 100,000 residents
Detroit: 5
Livonia: 8
Anti-black hate crimes per 100,000 black residents
Detroit: 2
Livonia: 435
Anti-white hate crimes per 100,000 white residents
Detroit: 22
Livonia: 0
------
I asked you repeatedly to explain your numbers, which you refused to do until today, when you reveled you were off by 431.
Thank you for proving the point that you're a jerk who simply refuses to admit when they've made a mistake.
jeeze. you make me ill in your arrogance. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1187
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 1:27 pm: | |
It's sad that all Metro Detroiters like to discuss about their city is race backed with arrogance. I've given up on some of the members here in DYes. Some of you just prove there's no hope.
(Message edited by DetroitRise on December 24, 2007) |
Crash
Member
Username: Crash
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 2:05 pm: | |
If we assume that anti-black crime is committed only by whites. And that anti-white crime is committed only by blacks. Then using the numbers posted above:
The ratio of 17 anti-black crimes being committed by 96,479 whites in Detroit > the ratio of 4 anti-black crimes being committed by 92,335 whites in Livonia.
With similar white populations, whites in Detroit commit 4 times as many anti-black crimes than in Livonia.
And since blacks in Livonia didn't commit ANY anti-white crimes, we can assume blacks in Detroit are also MORE racist than those in Livonia.
So if Detroit's black & white populations are both MORE racist than Livonia's, what does that tell us???
Answer: Absolutely nothing because it's easy to skew statistics to support your cause. |
Upinthewoods
Member
Username: Upinthewoods
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 5:25 pm: | |
I agree this is wrong but isn't 13yrs a little much? According to the article he wrote letters threatening "harm" not death. So basically he wrote a note saying he was going to kick their ass. This happens on a daily basis in middle schools around the country. However we don't here about that because it's not as juicy as the usual burb's vs city and white vs. black.
On the other hand, I am not black and I won't pretend to understand to be the black family in question. I was born white, tall, and upper middle class so I know nothing of persecution just based on my skin color. I just think 13yrs is alittle much thats all. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3145
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 24, 2007 - 10:58 pm: | |
JT1:
Simple answer. You are quite simply being untruthful (as you well know) when you say that I don't give the same benefit to Detroiters when discussing residents of the city. As I've stated numerous times, when I make a statement about Detroiters, I am not referring to every individual Detroiter, just as it would be incorrect to apply this racist clown's views to every individual resident of Livonia.
So as much as you'd like for there to be a double standard here, there simply isn't one being employed.
btw, in case you haven't noticed, those tactics don't seem to be fooling anybody around here much... |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 77
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 1:10 am: | |
Thejesus said: "'Very good, let me try this. Livonia residents are racist.'
See, Jt1, this clown Crumbled_Pavement gets it...why don't you?"
Actually, that clown Crumbled_pavement doesn't get it. What he does get is when Thejesus can't win an argument he results to insults. There is such a thing as connotation of a word/phrase which doesn't always equate to the exact meaning of a word/phrase. My point is it makes about as much sense to say "Detroiters are this or that" based on a few articles as it does to say Livonia residents are racist based on the posted article. But it's useless talking to people because people will be what they want, right or wrong, so continue on in your ignorance! |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3146
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
^man, you're way behind in the discussion here...you're about where Jt1 was 6 months ago...keep reading the forums and bring yourself up to speed and then come back and chime in |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2434
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 11:46 am: | |
>Thejesus
Chill man. Don't stress yourself out on your birthday. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 3147
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
^hey, you'd be stressed too if you'd been dead for 2000 years |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 151
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 2:37 am: | |
this would not be an issue if detroit had annexed livonia as it wanted to in the 1950,s |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6911
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 9:56 am: | |
If Detroit annexed Livonia it won't be long when more black folks moving into those neighborhoods by the late 1980s. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 1197
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 12:15 pm: | |
^^^Yeah, and by then we would have sprawled all the way to Saginaw and Lansing. |
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