 
Slider
Member
Username: Slider
Post Number: 41
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 12:35 pm: |    |
Good news, I was still under the impression that a Ypsi stop was still up in the air. I honestly did not think Ypsi would get a stop due to its close proximity to A2. But I certainly think there is enough ridership to merit a stop, both for those who travel to Detroit for work(like myself) and those who would use it to travel to downtown A2 (again, like myself).
Thanks for the clarification Prof. Scott |
Transitrider
Member
Username: Transitrider
Post Number: 62
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 12:39 pm: | |
Waymooreland: absolutely! What a great problem to have.
I think this thread, the comments about local and express service and the great historical information shows that we need what the region once had: commuter rail AND the interurbans. The commuter rail will be fast, somewhat less frequent geared toward commuting hours with few stops. The interurban would come back as light rail on Michigan: more stops serving each community/destination, more frequent, but faster than current bus service.
That said, I believe SMART is working on how they can better meet the needs of western Wayne Co now, before the train arrives, including talking to Plymouth about opting back in. Part of this effort seems to be evaluating the Michigan corridor lines (200s) and figuring out how to better serve those area despite limited funds and rising fuel costs.
I agree that Dexter and Chelsea are logical additions to 'Phase 2' of this service. AATA now has express commuter service to Chelsea:
http://theride.org/A2chelsea.a sp
Phase 2 should also include RO, B'ham/Troy and Pontiac, of course, and maybe Mt. Clemens/Port Huron too. |
Slider
Member
Username: Slider
Post Number: 42
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 1:11 pm: | |
"I agree that Dexter and Chelsea are logical additions to 'Phase 2' of this service"
Plans are already underway to link A2 to Howell and it appears that that leg will actually materialize before the A2 Detroit link. The problem is this (from A2 News):
"The 27-mile line would start in Howell and end at a site along Plymouth Road near Barton Drive in Ann Arbor. Proposed stops along the way are Chilson Road at Brighton Road in Genoa Township, the old village of Hamburg and Whitmore Lake."
The end terminus in A2 would not link with the existing Amtrak station. |
Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1281
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 1:13 pm: | |
Doesn't have to IMHO; AA has good bus service. |
Slider
Member
Username: Slider
Post Number: 43
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 1:24 pm: | |
Agreed, a dedicated bus transport would suffice. But certainly the two stations would need some link. |
Dtowncitylover
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Username: Dtowncitylover
Post Number: 112
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 1:25 pm: | |
For Phase 2, if they go north to Pontiac, they should put a stop in Ferndale, just a suggestion! |
Ljbad89
Member
Username: Ljbad89
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 1:26 pm: | |
The proposed Howell-AA commuter rail station in AA will not be the current Amtrak station and will indeed have a new stop. I cannot see the Howell-AA and Detroit-AA lines ever being connected. It would be very hard to because the two lines don't even intersect. The north-south line goes over Norfolk Southern tracks. |
Slider
Member
Username: Slider
Post Number: 44
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 1:52 pm: | |
Ljbad89, the lines may not connect, but the proposed terminus for the A2/Howell line and the current Amtrak station are reasonably close. Not close enough for most pedestrians, but certainly close enough that a shuttle service connecting the two would be quite feasible. I'd suspect AATA would run the shuttle. |
Transitrider
Member
Username: Transitrider
Post Number: 63
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 2:13 pm: | |
LJ, they used to connect (until sometime in the past 20 years I think?) in the northwest corner of where they cross. You can still see where the tracks crossed N. Main St. just north of the bridge. It was poorly patched for a while and resurfaced at some point.
Dtown: good suggestion, and again we get into: is the commuter rail going to be slowed down by adding Ferndale? Is Ferndale better served by the Woodward light rail (extended to at least past 9 mile in its Phase 2, of course.) Ferndale residents could hop up to the ROTC or down to New Center. According to Dtwflyer on the RenCen thread, SEMTA Commuter rail did not have a Ferndale stop.
But still a great discussion to have. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1282
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 2:18 pm: | |
Let's be fanciful: assuming we eventually have a train from New Center to Mt. Clemens or beyond, where would you put stations? |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6805
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 2:33 pm: | |
Professorscott... here's my list.... (assuming the tracks are those that follow alongside Groesbeck
1) Hamtramck
2) Detroit (8 Mile)
3) Warren (10 Mile)
4) Roseville/Fraser (13 Mile)
5) Clinton Township (16 Mile)
6) Mt. Clemens |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11693
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 2:42 pm: | |
Gistock - Does that make the Eastpointe (?) downtown accesible easily by the line? I can't recall where the downtown is but it seems to have a fair amount of potential. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 6490
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 2:44 pm: | |
Look at St. Louis. They extended their light rail service into Illinois and out to the their airport with two in-terminal, count 'em, two stops. For baseball games, the trains are packed out with commuters from Southern Illinois and from all over the Metro.
When Oregon organized their Tri-Met, they included services to 3 counties. With 5 rail lines either built or being built, the system has in-terminal connections to the airport, bus station, and AMTRAK Union Station. They run a FARELESS SQUARE area downtown where all quick rides on bus, street cars , and light rail train are FREE. Many light rail stops, have free park and ride lots for easy transfers from automobiles.
Detroit has much to learn from cities half Detroit's size. The two systems mentioned are over 25 yrs. old now.
jjaba. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 2:55 pm: | |
Jjaba, Detroit does not seem capable of learning. But we can dream. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6806
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 3:10 pm: | |
Jt1,
Eastpointe's downtown (or as close as they can get to a downtown) is located at 9 Mile & Gratiot. Hayes is the border between Eastpointe and Warren, and north of 10 Mile it's the border between Roseville & Warren.
Although the rail line is about 1 block west of Groesbeck Ave., Groesbeck is mainly commercial/industrial, and it is not really the main commercial street for any of the cities it goes thru (except maybe Fraser).
Gratiot, which runs parallel 1 1/2 miles east of Groesbeck, is the main thoroughfare for most of these towns, although it doesn't go thru Warren or Fraser. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 11695
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 3:12 pm: | |
Thanks G,
I was just wondering aloud since that area seems to have a little potential or so it seemed to me the last time I drove down Gratiot around 9 mile. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1284
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 3:13 pm: | |
For those reasons, I think an eventual east-side CR line should stop where there are bus crossings or opportunities for P&R lots. My thinking based on that is Conant (Hamtramck), near Nevada and Van Dyke (to serve SMART Van Dyke buses and DDOT Van Dyke and Chene buses), 9 Mile, 12 Mile and 15 Mile (SMART crosstowns), Mt Clemens maybe at Cass.
If it went further, 23 Mile at Meijers, New Haven, Richmond, then maybe one rural P&R stop, then PH. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 6808
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 3:47 pm: | |
I wasn't aware of the Smart routes professor, but...
A 9 Mile Rd. stop could handle crosstown Smart routes for Warren and Eastpointe.
A 12 Mile Rd. stop could handle crosstown Smart routes for Roseville and Warren (plus only be 3 blocks from Macomb College South Campus).
A 15 Mile Rd. stop could handle crosstown Smart routes for Fraser, Sterling Heights and Clinton Township.
A Cass Rd. route could handle Clinton Township, Sterling Heights and Macomb Township (via Romeo Plank to Cass).
And then the Mt. Clemens terminus would handle that city. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 6493
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 3:47 pm: | |
When the Glenview Naval Air Station, Illinois, was closed and the developers moved in with retail, entertainment, and housing, the Metro train system opened Glenview North Station.
This line is a direct 30 minute commute to the Chicago Loop. With the train service, the property is worth a lot more. Developers will pay for train stops.
In city after city, light rail or new streetcar lines bring huge riderships along the line. Thus, the taxing authorities do a Halo up to 1/2 mile from the line since property values are enhanced that far away. That's one way of paying for these new services.
In some cities with vision, new towns have been planned in the vacinity of the stations. As reference, look up Orenco Station, Oregon, hard by the Intel plant.
Anyone who knows Detroit area history, can see the evolution of towns along the Interurban lines and the so-called "streetcar suburbs."
jjaba. |
Ljbad89
Member
Username: Ljbad89
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 5:25 pm: | |
Transit rider: I am familiar with the crossing that I think you're talking about. However, it doesn't connect the two lines well. If the Howell train wanted to go towards Detroit it would have to go over the bridge, stop, back up down over Main St and down the connection track onto the Norfolk line. A new connection could always be created like the proposed one at West Detroit Junction, but like that will happen. :P
Here is a picture of the track I think you're talking about that I took a while ago:
http://i88.photobucket.com/alb ums/k200/elbuenohombre89/100_0 622.jpg |
Busterwmu
Member
Username: Busterwmu
Post Number: 485
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 5:31 pm: | |
Yes Ljbad89, that's the correct track. It's the old interchange line between the Annie over the bridge and the MC below.
It would be a complicated job, but could be done. I expect the commuter trains will operate push-pull style, with a powered locomotive on one end and a cab car on the other. Just have a qualified person always at AA to operate over the small section going "the wrong way" between the AA and NS lines, and it shouldn't take too long. That passing siding at the bottom of the hill in your photo would allow a train to pass on the NS mainline while a train going between the tracks was stopped, and therefore not holding up the main track. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1792
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 10:45 am: | |
One more suggestion for an east side rail line is the line that goes up through Warren and Sterling Heights between Mound and Van Dyke. Although this is in the middle of and industrial corridor, it also goes through where there are a lot of jobs. The tracks go right through the GM Tech Center. And there is a significant population through there.
Also that being said, the Gratiot SMART bus route is an extremely well traveled route, so they corridor has potential.
Also, I missed hearing the exact numbers on Channel 7 this morning, but SMART had a nice increase in ridership due to high gas prices. We need to take advantage of this and get mass transit now. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1285
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 11:20 am: | |
The problem nowadays centers on one thing: money. To build a comprehensive rapid transit system along the major corridors will cost somewhere between 3 and 6 billion dollars. Find the money, and believe me, we'll start building it today.
Years ago there were other issues, political and racial for instance, but I think right now if the money problem was solved everything else would come together. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 6496
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:12 pm: | |
Is Professorscott referring to the issue of Georgetown, Washington, DC which still has no Metro stop for fear that Black people will ride into the neighobrhood?
Refresh our minds about previous "political and racial issues" preventing Detroit from moving ahead with commuter rail. Are there people who won't ride trains such as AMTRAK and the People Mover because of "issues" or has this era ended?
Bob, now there's poetry and fantasy combined. jjaba imagines the day when a train delivers workers to the inside of the GM Tech. Center.
Anything is possible, hey, streetcars ran into the Ford Rouge Plant, carrying workers, and today, at Mazda-Hiroshima, jjaba rode the commuter rail into that very plant.
jjaba, wonders never cease. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3105
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:18 pm: | |
quote:To build a comprehensive rapid transit system along the major corridors will cost somewhere between 3 and 6 billion dollars. Find the money, and believe me, we'll start building it today.
That's it? I'll write you a check. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:20 pm: | |
I can imagine it too, Jjaba, but I can't imagine our completely dysfunctional governments will figure out how to pay for it.
Regarding the other issue: Go back to 1976 when the fed was willing to cough up several hundred million for us to have a Woodward transit system, and all we got out of it was the People Mover, why? If you can come up with an answer that is not a mix of politics and race, I'll retract what I said. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:21 pm: | |
Sorry, Iheart, my bookie says you're only good for two billion. Appreciate the thought though. |
Downriviera
Member
Username: Downriviera
Post Number: 400
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:27 pm: | |
Any chance of extending the zoo train? |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 6499
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:53 pm: | |
Downriviera, HOF post. Really funny.
Good idea, start with the kids.
jjaba, LOL.
Professorscott, has nothing changed since 1976?
If not, then Detroit deserves what is has and what it gets.
jjaba, Westsider. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:59 pm: | |
Jjaba, my point was things have changed. The money used to be one of many problems; now I believe the money is the only problem.
By the way my bookie tells me you're good for a couple billion as well.. if you and Iheart both send a check we can get started. |
Kenp
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Username: Kenp
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 1:09 pm: | |
zoo train, hahahahaha |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4341
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 7:27 pm: | |
quote:To build a comprehensive rapid transit system along the major corridors will cost somewhere between 3 and 6 billion dollars. Find the money, and believe me, we'll start building it today.
But this thread isn't about rapid transit--it's about commuter rail. Using existing trackage, you could set up a fairly comprehensive network for a couple hundred million dollars.
quote:Is Professorscott referring to the issue of Georgetown, Washington, DC which still has no Metro stop for fear that Black people will ride into the neighobrhood?
Georgetown actually didn't want a subway station because the residents feared it would create development pressure, turning the historic neighborhood into a sea of 10-story office buildings. Or so says Zachary Schrag, who wrote his doctoral dissertation on the "Great Society Subway". |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 1295
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 7:44 pm: | |
Dan, because the freight railroads in Detroit still actually use the tracks, and quite frequently, it won't be as simple or cheap as in other places. We will have to upgrade track and add track in the existing rail corridors, plus add stations, in order to get to where we need.
The initial Ann Arbor to Detroit line is hung up in exactly those issues. Norfolk Southern is requiring us to do some track work, and CN is going to severely strict how many trains we can run on their tracks.
So to do it right, and create the services we need, will cost 3 to 6 billion. The initial commuter rail line won't cost that much - but it won't be anything to brag about either. There's a reason they're calling it a "starter service". |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 4342
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 7:57 pm: | |
Correct, Professor, but it's not as if Detroit would have to build new trackage from scratch. From the projects I've seen, the startup capital costs are in the range of $2-3 million per mile when using existing trackage.
For what it's worth, most commuter rail systems (aside from the lines that operate on the Amtrak-owned Northeast Corridor line) share the trackage with freight railroads. It seems the level of service proposed is in-line with other commuter rail startups around the country. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 6501
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 1:01 pm: | |
Chicago seems to have worked it out. They got rail lines all over, and heavy rail commuter stations fan out everywhere. Ofcourse, the Chicago "L" has their own track, begged, borrowed, and stolen from independents yrs.ago.
jjaba. |
Bvos
Member
Username: Bvos
Post Number: 2275
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 10:22 pm: | |
An Ypsi stop has always been a part of the discussion.
The existing depot in Depot Town is completely unusable for a new rail service. It is no where near compliant with current ADA requirements and it would be impossible to make it ADA compliant. So it will either be bypassed and the Maple parking lot used for the new station, or it will be torn down and a new station constructed on the site. The Historic District Commission has had discussions about it over the years and they're fine with it being torn down. It's lost so much of its original character due to fires and runaway trains that there's nothing of any original architectural or historical value left to the thing. |
Ptpelee
Member
Username: Ptpelee
Post Number: 38
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 9:46 am: | |
Does anyone have pictures of what the new Dearborn station will look like? |
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