3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 1457 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 2:21 pm: | |
Detroitplanner has the most reasonable viewpoint in my opinion. Gazhekwe says: "The (retirees) paid for their retirement in wage benefit and retirement packages...The workers earned their benefits and have every right to enjoy them" That's a warm fuzzy feeling but simply wrong. Their "rights" are subject to elimination or material adjustment in bankruptcy. That's what the law is there for. Why are their rights any more valuable than the rights of suppliers, municipalities who floated rev bonds for the companies, and service providers who will not get paid what they are owed if there are bankruptcies? What about the "rights" of shareholders? In bankruptcy, the pain will run wide and deep. (You hope all those fork lift operators and janitors making $80+/hr for so many years saved their money.) Romney (who was more of a front man at Bain Capital than somebody who was out there buying and running companies - and who made a lot less money than his peers at Bain) views a bankruptcy as a cure-all when it is far from that. The guy is not at all impressive in my view and based on the way he ran Mass - not very well - I don't know why anyone would listen to him. As bad as a bailout is, a bankruptcy is worse. The Union has made many concessions, but the pain experienced so far is just a taste of what's to come. I think it will take a reduction in wages, the elimination of the Union's sacred jobs bank and similar programs, the tightening of work rules, the relinquishment of much Union power over matters which were historically management's alone, the reduction in health care benefits and more cost sharing, and the substantial reduction in retiree benefits. In return, the union member (current and retired) should be given a non-voting stake in the companies which would provide some financial benefit recapture if they ever turn around. By agreeing to those things the result would probably be the retention of most jobs, albeit at much less remuneration. Under the circumstances I think management currently is doing a good job under almost insurmountable odds. They're still not earning their pay, however. The companies need management which will address the Union issues head on and come up with a survival plan the Unions will have to live with, or die. They also need Union leadership which really does see the handwriting on the wall and takes a very hard line with the members. The Union members of course hold the key to anything that happens prior to a bankruptcy, and who know if the collective intellect is capable of analyzing these issues realistically in order to make the correct decisions rather than cutting off their noses to spite their faces. You have to bet on the common sense of the workers. Anybody willing to do that? (Maybe D_mcc is correct. The solution may be to boycott amway [sic.]) (Message edited by 3rdworldcity on November 19, 2008) |
Oldestuff Member Username: Oldestuff
Post Number: 94 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 2:37 pm: | |
I certainly hope that the Big 3 are reading this blog and writing down all these ideas. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2805 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 3:26 pm: | |
From the article it appears many failed to finish or comprehend. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5671 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 3:35 pm: | |
People won't purchase vehicles from an automaker in bankruptcy. |
Mikem Member Username: Mikem
Post Number: 3726 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 3:40 pm: | |
Why not? People flew and are flying on airlines in bankruptcy. If they have the balls to do that, I'd think they wouldn't fear buying a vehicle from a bankrupt automaker (if they don't liquidate: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/ news?pid=20601087&sid=aNUr0y4t unTM&refer=home). |
Danindc Member Username: Danindc
Post Number: 5260 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 3:46 pm: | |
Alright, this is what I gather: 1. Bankruptcy is not an option, because GM may not be able to obtain Debtor-in-Possession financing in Chapter 11. 2. Bankruptcy is not an option because no one will buy a car from a company in bankruptcy. 3. Anyone who opposes a bailout is (apparently) an insensitive prick, and hates Detroit, America, and his own mom. What's the alternative? WHY should the government give the automakers a blank check? So they can continue hemorrhaging cash? Right now, they all sound like junkies: Just loan me a little bit more money, then I'll stop, and I'll pay you back every dollar. How many times are we going to enable them? There needs to be holistic and drastic change if they get government money. All we're seeing in the press, though, is "give us money, or else a lot of people are going to lose their jobs". If the companies keep bleeding cash, those people are going to lose their jobs anyway. You bet your ass the $15 million compensation packages and private jets aren't going anywhere anytime soon, though. Where are the plans to turn the company around? How are they going to return to profitability, so that they can repay the loan? Sure, much work has been done in the recent past, but that's only been good enough to get the automakers to where they are now. IT. ISN'T. ENOUGH. There are no Brownie Points awarded for past endeavors. GM, Ford, and Chrysler simply aren't credit-worthy. They don't deserve a blank check, nor have any of the three made the case otherwise. |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3636 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 3:53 pm: | |
quote: WHY should the government give the automakers a blank check? So they can continue hemorrhaging cash? I think the reason they gave was that they needed a bridge between now and when their concessions from the union contracts kick in next year. |
Lpg Member Username: Lpg
Post Number: 99 Registered: 02-2008
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:02 pm: | |
Eliminating retiree benefits and pensions is a good idea. Also why not get rid of that money losing Social Security. That way you have to work and pay taxes till you die. If you are too sick or disabled to work, find a relative to take you in. By eliminating all these perks to the ever shrinking middleclass we can all return to the wonderful conditions of the sweatshop 1930's. It's a win-win situation for Washington and Wall Street. All the money flows in one direction. You could almost hear the drooling from here. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5673 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:03 pm: | |
Airlines are not manufacturers. Why do people keep comparing service companies to major ticket item retail manufacturers? That comparison is nowhere near valid. Neither is the comparison to Delphi because Delphi does not retail under their name. |
Mikem Member Username: Mikem
Post Number: 3728 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:09 pm: | |
So why won't people buy from a manufacturer in bankruptcy? |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 2021 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:12 pm: | |
Who would manufacture parts to repair cars if the company were out of business? I have to wonder where people got their packards' repaired in the 60s. (Message edited by cambrian on November 19, 2008) |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3706 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:15 pm: | |
How about this: Our country is being torn apart because of greed. The government wants your money. They'll give it to the people who have the most money, because they can grease the wheels the best to get it. It's all about dividing your money, for reasons the money-giving may or may not address. Our banks and financial institutions are run by greedheads. They've been squeezing every last drop of revenue they can leverage by investing in risky stuff. They don't care about leaving people holding the bag. They want money now. In fact, when it became apparent they were running their companies into the ground, they turned to Uncle Sugar for YOUR money to help them prop up their bad business practices. The people in Congress, eager to keep THEIR PAC money flowing into their campaign coffers, were willing to agree to it even though it threatened their re-election. Then, after claiming they needed that money to get credit flowing again, the banks turned around, laughed, and started using it to pay dividends, bonuses, and even to buy other banks. (SO VERY GREEDY!) Now that financial institutions are using the money for their own greedy purposes, none of that money is flowing, and nobody can buy overpriced, gas-guzzling American cars, which is what made the car companies their money. They could have made a tidy but small profit margin on smaller cars, but since they were GREEDY, and wanted MORE money, they kept pushing the models that made the most PROFIT: Gas guzzling SUVs and light trucks. And, when that didn't make them enough money, they demanded concessions from their unions, accusing the workers of being GREEDY AND LAZY. Now that nobody wants the cars they were pushing, (and even their own workers are trying to keep their old cars running, since they don't have the savings, wages or credit to buy new cars on company deals) the big three are flying on their luxury jets to Uncle Sugar to get MORE of YOUR money. Why? They NEED THAT MONEY to prop up their greedy, money-sucking bad business models. And the GREEDY politicians, who probably don't feel they get enough money from automotive PACs, are so GREEDY they don't care a whit for the Big 3's workers' welfare. If this is the kind of country we've become, where avarice has taken over so completely, maybe we need to go back to a kind of Dark Ages for a few hundred years, develop society from the ground up and start completely over. No amount of money shoveled into corporate America can solve the problem; it only starts a feeding frenzy. We don't need a bailout. We need an organized society that values logic, reason and compassion instead of short-term gains and quick cash. |
Macknwarren Member Username: Macknwarren
Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:15 pm: | |
This just in: FOX News (national) is planning to do a show tomorrow morning from the Packard Plant. Won't that be a fine background for Americans to better understand the auto industry? |
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 1459 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:28 pm: | |
Detroitnerd: Didn't you listen to Michael Douglas? GREED IS GOOD. |
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 3707 Registered: 07-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:29 pm: | |
I find it ironic that the Gordon Gekko speech is based on a speech given by Detroiter Ivan Boesky in 1986. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5674 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:30 pm: | |
"We don't need a bailout. We need an organized society that values logic, reason and compassion instead of short-term gains and quick cash." nuking California and Texas will go a long way toward it |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 2022 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:34 pm: | |
I don't know, the more I find out the rest of the country does not give a shit about Michigan the more I think we oughta take our share of the great lakes, our agriculture, the federal tax money we pay out and just become part of Canada. Hell, our governor was born there, should be easy. |
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 1460 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:36 pm: | |
Cambrian: "Who would manufacture parts to repair cars if the company went out of business? Answ: hundreds of companies. There are many, many companies making non-OEM parts today. The same companies who make the parts now will continue to do so and sell them through all kinds of outlets such as Murray's or Pep Boys. |
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 1461 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:39 pm: | |
Lilpup: Nuke Texas? Don't you know the state motto? DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS!!! |
Otter Member Username: Otter
Post Number: 391 Registered: 12-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 4:58 pm: | |
"We don't need a bailout. We need an organized society that values logic, reason and compassion instead of short-term gains and quick cash." nuking California and Texas will go a long way toward it ****************** That's an example of logical, reasoned and compassionate thinking if I ever saw one, eh? |
Gibran Member Username: Gibran
Post Number: 4259 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 5:04 pm: | |
stop the war use the monies to help Detroit and let cc and Mitt live happier ever after..on a desert island...what is it with well coiffured people and conservatives... |
Maxdetroit Member Username: Maxdetroit
Post Number: 90 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 5:05 pm: | |
Another Compassionate Conservative! Romney's 'Let them eat cake' attitude is especially charming coming from a man with a personal fortune in the hundreds of millions. No wonder he could hardly buy himself a primary--even his own party knows a phony when they see it. And how could anyone in Michigan seriously consider this opportunist a Favorite Son. His mother happened to be here when she went into labor so that makes him a Favorite Son??? Give me a break. He left Michigan as a teenager and never looked back until he came around sniffing for votes last year. Homeboy, my @ss. |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1874 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 5:16 pm: | |
If Romney is thinking of running in 2012, he just lost his "home" state. |
Larryinflorida Member Username: Larryinflorida
Post Number: 3362 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 5:49 pm: | |
I think the sun will run out of Hydrogen before the Republicans and their "we'll worry about it tomorrow" ideology are given consideration again by the voter. Today is the "tomorrow" they were talking about. Way to go, trickle down apologists. |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1876 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 5:52 pm: | |
If the GOP let the auto industry implode, they will have put the last nail in their 2012 coffin, of course nominating Sarah Palin for President in 2012 will do that also. |
Mikem Member Username: Mikem
Post Number: 3730 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 6:01 pm: | |
You think anyone in a red state cares about the auto industry? No one cares about the auto industry outside of Michigan and Ohio. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5675 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 6:02 pm: | |
"That's an example of logical, reasoned and compassionate thinking if I ever saw one, eh?" Why should the perpetually poorest city in the nation, given no help for years on end, show compassion when it's not extended in kind? So many out there continue to say "Fuck Detroit" despite the fact that a number of the foreign owned factories, given tax breaks by states like Alabama, Mississippi, and Tennessee, wouldn't even be there if those states weren't subsidized by TAX DOLLARS from donor states like MICHIGAN, ILLINOIS, INDIANA, and OHIO! OUR OWN TAX DOLLARS USED AGAINST US! while we have the most impoverished city in the nation. Don't fucking talk to me about compassion. |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5679 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 6:54 pm: | |
"This just in: FOX News (national) is planning to do a show tomorrow morning from the Packard Plant. Won't that be a fine background for Americans to better understand the auto industry?" msnbc.com is already using a photo on their front page - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1880 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 6:58 pm: | |
Will that be what the Ren Cen looks like in 10 years? |
Gene Member Username: Gene
Post Number: 126 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 6:59 pm: | |
Hell, Jenny isn't even in the country. Cool city anyone? |
Gibran Member Username: Gibran
Post Number: 4261 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 7:52 pm: | |
is it that republicans (with few exceptions) are paying back America on this one...seems that if your collar is white your bailout was assured... |
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm
Post Number: 1876 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 8:26 pm: | |
" given tax breaks by states like Alabama, Mississippi, and Tennessee, wouldn't even be there if those states weren't subsidized by TAX DOLLARS from donor states like MICHIGAN, ILLINOIS, INDIANA, and OHIO!" Lilpup, you really seem to think that the root of Michigan's, and now the auto industry's, problems are because they get less back than other states from the Feds. Do you even know what that means and why it is so? The prime determinant is low state income. The higher the average income, the more federal taxes are paid from your state and the less federal social spending is paid to your state. The lower the income, lower taxes are paid and there's higher federal social spending. Have proportionately more retirees than elsewhere? Then more social security and medicare payments go to that state. Have a lot of military bases? Then federal income and procurement go to your states. Does the fed govt own a lot of property in your state? Then your state gets more grants in lieu of property taxes than others (and you lose the opportunity to use that property and get your own taxes). I suggest you start here. http://www.taxfoundation.org/f iles/sr139.pdf Oh yes, your rant is also incorrect, as this shows that Ohio and Indiana both get back more than they pay, and Texas gets less. http://www.taxfoundation.org/f iles/fedspend_per_taxesbystate -20071009.pdf |
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 2239 Registered: 03-2008
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 8:28 pm: | |
Here is a direct link to one of their main articles, which features the Packard Plant. Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27 787826/ Do you guys feel that picture accurately reflects what most of America thinks when they think of Michigan? |
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5683 Registered: 06-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 8:38 pm: | |
"Oh yes, your rant is also incorrect, as this shows that Ohio and Indiana both get back more than they pay, and Texas gets less." Over the period 1981-2005 (the most recent available) the simple average annual returns were: Alabama $1.40 Mississippi $1.69 Texas $0.90 Indiana $0.91 Ohio $0.96 Illinois $0.74 Michigan $0.80 New Mexico $1.98 over 25 years that's a hell of a lot of money gone from some states to others - Detroit is the eleventh largest city in the country with the highest poverty rate - and Michigan has one of the higher average population ages in the country, has the eighth highest population overall, and has an average to below average per capita income - yet Michigan is still one of the lowest return states so it obviously isn't all about social programs (Message edited by lilpup on November 19, 2008) |
Ashdetroit Member Username: Ashdetroit
Post Number: 27 Registered: 08-2008
| Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:41 pm: | |
To go back a bit, Detroitnerd, your Greed rant was one of the most eloquent posts I've seen on this site. Thanks for writing it. I think this is going to be a rough winter. |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1822 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:51 pm: | |
I so hope Romney runs in 2012 so we in Michigan can knock him back into yesterday. |
Guideboat Member Username: Guideboat
Post Number: 41 Registered: 02-2008
| Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:03 pm: | |
"Do you guys feel that picture accurately reflects what most of America thinks when they think of Michigan?" Absolutely. There is no sympathy anywhere for the rust belt cities. The bulk of the country would happily allow cities like Detroit and Cleveland to wither up and blow away. It makes it easier when you believe the cities are strictly abandoned hulks with no vibrancy. |
Ashdetroit Member Username: Ashdetroit
Post Number: 28 Registered: 08-2008
| Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:06 pm: | |
Romney = Judas |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1823 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:12 pm: | |
Here's a good smackdown of Romney. Shocking to read it in the Huffington Post, most auto commentary there is by Prius-driving, "let them eat cake" Hollywood wives. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ toby-barlow/romneys-idiotic-pl an-for_b_145194.html |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 5563 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:29 pm: | |
"There is no sympathy anywhere for the rust belt cities. The bulk of the country would happily allow cities like Detroit and Cleveland to wither up and blow away. It makes it easier when you believe the cities are strictly abandoned hulks with no vibrancy". And much of this attitude comes from the crowd that considers themselves more "pro America" than the rest of us... I'm old enough to remember when they still made radios and TVs in this country...If the auto industry goes the same way, it's not coming back. But hey, we can always just export materials instead of products. It works so well for the third world countries, right? |
Novine Member Username: Novine
Post Number: 864 Registered: 07-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:15 am: | |
I suspect we won't be seeing Mr. Romney's face around these parts anytime soon. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6437 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:25 am: | |
Yeah, if he has any sense he'll never show his face here, again. What a two-faced hypocrite. Just months ago he was hear bashing McCain for telling us that the jobs weren't coming back. It'd have been different if he'd had the same view now as he did then, it just proves why Romney didn't get the nomination: because everyone saw both of his two faces. This is the same politician who proclaimed himself to be more of an advocate for a woman's right to choose than Ted Kennedy and then ran as a social conservative. Guess what, Mitt? When our system works properly, you really only can fool some of the people some of the time, Willard. Too bad for you, huh? (Message edited by lmichigan on November 21, 2008) |
Bobl Member Username: Bobl
Post Number: 212 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 5:55 am: | |
Romney has made his fortune by picking businesses clean, shedding their employees, selling off what he can, then moving on. Detroit is not "near and dear to his heart". He left and never looked back. Nice hair and great clothes, though. Might qualify him for another run at the presidency. I hope that it is not rude of me to re post this item. Fact is, I was too nice to the two faced silver spooned poser. He's just what we need: a spoiled brat who was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. An Iraq war hawk who glibly explains away the absence there of any of his sons. What an arrogant blowhard! |
Dannyoshow Member Username: Dannyoshow
Post Number: 19 Registered: 09-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 8:31 am: | |
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Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 345 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 9:16 am: | |
Bobl- I let your post go the first time, but I can't do it twice. Please provide examples of Romney "picking businesses clean, shedding their employees, selling off what he can, then moving on". I can certainly give you examples to the contrary, not the least of which is Dominos Pizza. |
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 778 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 9:41 am: | |
Sparty... this is just from a 5 minute Google search. Mitt Romney: The Huckster Rolling stone Nov 2007
quote:A typical example of Bain's approach was its experience with another office-supply company called Ampad, which it acquired in 1992. In 1993, the company had $11 million in debt; by 1999, that number had grown to nearly $400 million, and the firm eventually declared bankruptcy. But despite Ampad's failure, Bain made a fortune, raking in more than $100 million while driving the company into the ground and destroying hundreds of jobs in places like New York (where 185 people were thrown out of work in a plant closing near Buffalo) and Indiana (where the firm fired 200 workers from a paper factory). Even more telling was Romney's interest in a medical-testing firm called Damon Corp., which Bain bought in 1989. The company was eventually fined a record $119 million for defrauding the federal government out of $25 million, but Bain still tripled its investment on the Damon deal. And Romney, who was sitting on the Damon board at the time of the fraud (his claim that he was the one who called for an internal investigation has never been substantiated), made a personal profit of $473,000 on the deal. In a delicious detail that says a lot about the nature of Romney's morality, the investor had no problem making piles of cash off companies that executed mass layoffs or defrauded the government, but he balked when asked to invest in a Bain deal to acquire a video distribution company called Artisan Entertainment. "I didn't want to profit from a studio that made R-rated movies," he huffed. Boston Globe- January 2007
quote:In early 1995, as the Ampad paper plant in Marion, Ind., neared its shutdown following a bitter strike, Randy Johnson, a worker and union official, scrawled a personal letter to Mitt Romney, pouring out his disappointment that Romney, then chief executive of the investment firm that controlled Ampad, had not done enough to settle the strike and save some 200 jobs. more stories like this "We really thought you might help," Johnson said in the handwritten note, "but instead we heard excuses that were unacceptable from a man of your prominent position." Romney, who had recently lost a Senate race in which the strike became a flashpoint, responded that he had "privately" urged a settlement, but was advised by lawyers not to intervene directly. His political interests, he explained, conflicted with his business responsibilities. Now, Romney's decision to stay on the sidelines as his firm, Bain Capital, slashed jobs at the office supply manufacturer stands in marked contrast to his recent pledges to beleaguered auto workers in Michigan and textile workers in South Carolina to "fight to save every job." Throughout his 15-year career at Bain Capital, which bought, sold, and merged dozens of companies, Romney had other chances to fight to save jobs, but didn't. His ultimate responsibility was to make money for Bain's investors, former partners said. NYTimes Jun3 2007
quote:“Mitt broke the mold there,” said William F. Weld, another former Republican governor of Massachusetts and private equity fund manager. “The private equity business is a pretty good place to make a lot of money,” Mr. Weld added. “The market rewards people who show they can see value in a company quickly, adjust a few toggle switches and sell it again four or five years later. It is capitalism’s way of picking the fleas off the dog.” Such astounding profits brought critics as well. Warren E. Buffett, the legendary investor, has derided private equity firms as “deal flippers” who do little to increase the real value of their targets, profiting from rising prices driven in part by their own deals and by charging their acquisitions “fees, fees, fees.” Others complain that private equity fund managers like Mr. Romney pay only capital gains taxes instead of income taxes on their cuts of investors’ profits. At present tax rates, that means that they pay 15 percent instead of 35 percent on most of their earnings. “When you look at the amount of money these guys are making,” said Victor Fleischer, a legal scholar who has consulted with the Senate Finance Committee about changing the law, “the effective tax rate is just sort of shocking to the conscience.” ..... One transaction, involving the medical diagnostics company Dade Behring, took place in 1999 as Mr. Romney was leaving the firm, and the other, involving KB Toys, occurred about two years later. Bain and its co-investors extracted special payments of over $100 million from each company, enabling Bain to make a healthy profit even before re-selling the businesses — a practice known as “getting back your bait.” Lenders say Bain is one of the firms that has taken the most in such payments, which companies usually make by taking on additional debt. Both Dade Behring and KB Toys soon suffered dips in their business. Unable to meet the burden of their debts, each filed for bankruptcy and laid off thousands of workers. Bain Capital spokesmen have said the company did nothing improper. LA TIMES December 2007
quote: While in private business, Mitt Romney utilized shell companies in two offshore tax havens to help eligible investors avoid paying U.S. taxes, federal and state records show. Romney gained no personal tax benefit from the legal operations in Bermuda and the Cayman Islands. But aides to the Republican presidential hopeful and former colleagues acknowledged that the tax-friendly jurisdictions helped attract billions of additional investment dollars to Romney's former company, Bain Capital, and thus boosted profits for Romney and his partners I'm not begruding the man his ability to turn a profit, but he's a Tax sheltering corporate raider of the old school. Fine. Whatever Mitt. Rake in the bucks. Just quit the sanctimonious preaching. |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3641 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 10:54 am: | |
General Motors answers Mitt Romney (gave him a pretty good smack in that final paragraph): http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11 /21/opinion/l21gm.html |
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 346 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:34 am: | |
Higgs: I totally disagree with your characterization of "corporate raider." Bain has invested in hundreds of companies, not all of them have worked out. But they have made many long term investments in companies. They invested in Staples, for example, when it was only one store and they grew up to 1,000+ stores. Hardly the action of a corporate raider. |
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2947 Registered: 07-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:43 am: | |
Obama has no plan on auto loans, just lip service, just like no plan on financial bailout, he just sat back and did nothing. Why doesn't he stick his neck out and do something bold instead of hiding behind his trial balloons that other people raise. Romney might be right, BK might be the best way to clean house and come out stronger. I think people will still buy GM cars if they come out stronger and aren't saddled with billions of debt. |
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 779 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:52 am: | |
Sparty. You asked for examples and I gave them to you. Like any politician, the reality of his career in no way, lives up to the narrative he spews. His hands are as dirty as anyone that enters the fray and makes billions. If Staples were to falter, he'd rip and shred it too. Bottom line is all that matters. Again, not begrudging that. Just naively asking for a little honesty. However, since honesty is about the last thing I would expect from a mormon (I mean, with the amount of spin that he has to do to explain his fucked up cult, how could anyone believe anything that comes out of his mouth?) ...I really don't give a shit one way or the other. |
Otter Member Username: Otter
Post Number: 399 Registered: 12-2007
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:48 pm: | |
"I mean, with the amount of spin that he has to do to explain his fucked up cult, how could anyone believe anything that comes out of his mouth?" When I hear Mormonism described in those terms, I am reminded of something funny I read about Romney in the election runup - words to the effect that the people who worship a 2000-year-old Jewish zombie will never vote for the guy who follows a weird religious cult. |
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 781 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 4:53 pm: | |
^^ I know... right? Especially when we all know it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster who brought life as we know it into existence with a wiggle of his noodley appendage. |
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6440 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 1:01 am: | |
Lefty, you can't have it both ways. Your criticizing Obama from not being more vocal (something I criticized him for as I think that with the clout he has he could have easily moved the discussion from "if" we should bailout to "when and how" we should bailout), but if he came out in favor of offering the bridge loans, you'd criticize him for not advocating bankruptcy. You're not an honest broker, here. You're a Republican looking for the maximum amount of opportunities to criticize and obstruct. |
Bobl Member Username: Bobl
Post Number: 218 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 5:31 pm: | |
"Flying Spaghetti Monster", or "Monsters From The Id"? |
Flanders_field Member Username: Flanders_field
Post Number: 1318 Registered: 01-2008
| Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 5:52 pm: | |
Postpone or delay space shuttle missions until (or IF) the economy improves, why is NASA spending billions while some congressmen are whining about corporate jets? Who cares about playing frigging space cowboys and stations when the US could be heading into GD II? http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnew s/2008/feb/HQ_08034_FY2009_bud get.html |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1829 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 6:24 pm: | |
How about we whine, when our insurance rates go up because of millionaires' houses in California burning down or sliding into the Pacific because they were built where Mother Nature doesn't want them...Better not be any federal $$ helping with those fires, either. |
Hornist9 Member Username: Hornist9
Post Number: 171 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 9:41 pm: | |
Flanders_Field, That is the best thing I've read today. The US Govt. can waste more money by launching those useless missions. If they should send up another one soon, I nominate that Alabama Senator Shelby be sent up and thrown out of the fucking air lock... |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1833 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 10:07 pm: | |
Put him in one of those Benzes Alabama bought and paid for, and let him orbit in that for a while... |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1835 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 2:04 pm: | |
Great piece on Huffington Post about "Mittonomics" being applied to Citigroup: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ bill-scher/applying-mitt-o-nom ics-to_b_146354.html |