 
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 9425
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 10:21 pm: |    |
I can sorta see your point there, Digitalvision- especially with the alcohol situation. I know bartenders are on a very very tight rein when it comes to serving additional drinks to people they consider to be drunk.
Now as far as the clubs creating the events- I believe that could be a huge loophole that people can leap through. What about movie theaters? Restaurants? Any public venue is technically "creating an event" for people to attend. These places- just like this club, is a legal for profit sort of business.
If gang members decide to descend upon my local grocery store and cause mayhem- is the store "inviting" them in because they need to frequent the place for groceries?
I see your point that these clubs seem to be a haven for this sort of activity but are we putting too much of a mandate on the venue to police beyond their doors? And what if law abiding citizens like the majority of us want to frequent these clubs to listen to the music, dance and have a frosty adult beverage?
This might sound kind of strange, but the gangsters and criminals have some of the same tastes that regular citizens do too. It's a difficult thing to neutralize this sort of crime to say the least. |
Bobl
Member
Username: Bobl
Post Number: 237
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 12:52 am: | |
Sludgedaddy: Hot Pants night!!?? |
J_to_the_jeremy
Member
Username: J_to_the_jeremy
Post Number: 140
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 1:01 am: | |
"This might sound kind of strange, but the gangsters and criminals have some of the same tastes that regular citizens do too. It's a difficult thing to neutralize this sort of crime to say the least."
Smogboy, I totally agree with you. Quoting just for emphasis. It's a slippery slope. Look, violence at clubs is a problem in every city in the country. Let's work to break up the gangs and take back the neighborhoods instead of punishing businesses who open downtown and give us nightlife that often caters to diverse crowds. |
Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl
Post Number: 1491
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 1:35 am: | |
quote:Smogboy, I totally agree with you. Quoting just for emphasis. It's a slippery slope. Look, violence at clubs is a problem in every city in the country. Let's work to break up the gangs and take back the neighborhoods instead of punishing businesses who open downtown and give us nightlife that often caters to diverse crowds.
jeremy, that's good. how do you propose taking back the neighborhoods? what is going on in the neighborhoods that creates violence in clubs in every city of the country? what message do you give to people to fix things? and what influences do you remove to stop the crime?
can you describe where the "slippery slope" you mentioned crosses the line? like, where you can start to see things getting a bit out of hand? you probably have some good thoughts! |
Nellonfury
Member
Username: Nellonfury
Post Number: 269
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 5:31 am: | |
The top MAIN reason I don't go to clubs in Detroit. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 2331
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 5:34 am: | |
"The clubs create events that attract certain crowds."
I guess I'm playing Devil's advocate here, but I disagree. The suppliers met a demand. Just like any other ban or prohibition, it became a dangerous black market. The raves of the 1990s come to mind. Our local news stations ran some good stories on those. Some were disasters waiting to happen.
Then you have after hours spots. As recent as 2005; the area around Twelve-25 (Fowler) and the Library and Harmony Park lofts/offices, used to have a serious problem with late night parties disguised as art galleries or charity events.
*It is not a coincidence that insurance rates, certain crimes, and warehouse fires went hand in hand (among other things) with the down fall of the raves and the like (a strong argument against many other bans).
You can't keep things banned in the U.S., without horrible side effects and backlash. Detroit's biggest weakness is possibly our regular refusal to compromise.
*http://www.cus.wayne.edu/conte nt/presentations/LeadDetroitCr ime.pdf
PS: My power has been out all night... go figure.
(Message edited by Sean_of_Detroit on December 01, 2008) |
Terryh
Member
Username: Terryh
Post Number: 1097
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 1:00 pm: | |
Gangland violence in downtown Detroit is nothing new-spend a couple of hours in the microfilm room of the Detroit Public Library reviewing newspapers from the roaring twenties and mobbed up thirties. Drive by shootings-robberies-burglaries were a rather common occurence in prohibition, and after, era of Detroit. |
J_to_the_jeremy
Member
Username: J_to_the_jeremy
Post Number: 141
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 1:24 pm: | |
"jeremy, that's good. how do you propose taking back the neighborhoods? what is going on in the neighborhoods that creates violence in clubs in every city of the country? what message do you give to people to fix things? and what influences do you remove to stop the crime?
can you describe where the "slippery slope" you mentioned crosses the line? like, where you can start to see things getting a bit out of hand? you probably have some good thoughts!"
Look, I'm not saying that we have all the answers to ending gang violence in the United States. I'm just saying closing clubs wont stop it. I believe Smogboy did a good job of describing the legal "slippery slope". If it's clear Bleu did something wrong in causing the shooting, then it's a different story. But implying that Hip-Hop nights, concerts, etc. are what causes gang violence is somewhat offensive to me. In fact, Detroit's local music scene is one of the least affected by gangs in the country. But regardless; if gangs have a conflict, they're going to "resolve" it whether or not there's a club open. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3657
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 1:30 pm: | |
^Spot on post.
For the record, Detroit isn't hardly alone in having nightclub shooting incidents. They happen in NYC all the time. |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 10558
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 1:43 pm: | |
Who gives a fuck what happens in NYC with 20 times the population? It is happening here. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3658
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 2:16 pm: | |
quote:Who gives a fuck what happens in NYC with 20 times the population? It is happening here.
Uh, okay. If you all stopped acting like Detroit was some fucking alternate universe you might figure out how to deal with some of your problems. |
7miledog
Member
Username: 7miledog
Post Number: 55
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 2:47 pm: | |
The best thing we can do to reduce crime, violent or other, is to raise our young men better, as they are the single largest group of criminal offenders. Once we hold PARENTS responsible for being PARENTS (with the necessary back-up if they are unable to do the job), then we will see results.
It is no wonder that young people do not believe in ramifications for their actions when we do not hold adults to that same standard. |
Diehard
Member
Username: Diehard
Post Number: 649
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 2:55 pm: | |
The clubs aren't responsible for what goes on outside their doors, but...
If they have security at the door patting down patrons, and a lot of them get sent away for trying to bring in weapons and return a few minutes later, the club should realize that those guns are in the car. Any fight that spills outside will escalate as soon as the people get to their cars.
Of course you blame the knuckleheads doing the fighting and shooting, and that's not the club's fault. But you'd think any club that's concerned about their patrons' and employees' safety would probably switch to country/western or smooth jazz.
Man, that is some scary sh*t, though. You go out to the club to dance and have a good time, and some gang knuckleheads decide it's a good place to randomly spray a crowd. |
Motorcitydave
Member
Username: Motorcitydave
Post Number: 159
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 3:23 pm: | |
How about making the clubs (any venue with a certain capacity) pay for a certain number of cops to be present when they have large events? That way it's safer for the customers, safer for the clubs employees, doesn't cost the tax payers anything, and it's extra hours/money for the cops to make.... plus it gives a police presence, and will act as a deterrent also.
I know I have seen cops before at State Theater shows... why not clubs like Bleu? |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1473
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:53 pm: | |
I like that idea alot, Motorcitydave. The best security is so effective that it's a deterrent and less skirmishes/incidents arise. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2843
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 4:57 pm: | |
Motorcitydave, define a large event? Bleu is the smallest club venue I have ever seen. It's not the number of patrons that causes the problems. It's the KIND of patrons that come to the event.
Outlawing clubs to end club violence is like outlawing driving to end driving deaths. You can't enforce it. You can't control human behavior unless you want to create a police state.
Also, clubs are in business to make money. If a concert promoter or party promoter is willing to pay to have their event put on in a club, how many club owners are going to say "no" because they're worried about club violence? If the club owner is smart, he or she will have more security on hand. However, that can't stop a nut who's hell bent on causing a scene at that club. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2829
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 5:01 pm: | |
quote:The clubs aren't responsible for what goes on outside their doors
That is not true. |
J_to_the_jeremy
Member
Username: J_to_the_jeremy
Post Number: 142
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2008 - 5:09 pm: | |
Explain. |
Sean_of_detroit
Member
Username: Sean_of_detroit
Post Number: 2333
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 12:40 am: | |
They already do that at Bleu (or did, maybe I'm not aware of that change). You guys speak like Bleu is the same as Red Squared or Tavern on the Park was.
Bleu spent millions of dollars on renovating that theater, installing one of the industries top sound and lighting systems, hiring well-known dancers and models, and booking either top and/or local talent. Techno is all the rage in a number of countries. When young foreigners visit the birth place of techno (Detroit), Bleu is often a must see tourist attraction.
Upper class twenty somethings are their usual clientele, and I fail to see how the negatives outweigh the positives in that. Does it really need to be said that some of those people are the ones who moved into Merchant's Row and Kales? The ones that didn't, still walk right past the display windows, coming soon signs, and new street-scapes on Woodward. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 7573
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 3:30 am: | |
You won't find any gun violence happening inside the Fox. EVERYONE has to go thru metal detectors and searches.
Even all the folks at Preservation Wayne's annual movie palace tours at the Fox have to go thru a metal detector, and may be searched... and that's when the theatre is completely empty!
But that's inside the theatre... |
Daddeeo
Member
Username: Daddeeo
Post Number: 326
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 10:25 pm: | |
Promoters are in business to make money. Too much security costs money and they aren't going to cut their profit for that. |
Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport
Post Number: 11891
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2008 - 10:49 am: | |
The critically injured third person from the Bleu shooting died yesterday, so chalk up three. |
Ashdetroit
Member
Username: Ashdetroit
Post Number: 56
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2008 - 7:57 pm: | |
re: Supersport. That's terrible. I'm sorry to hear that.
I don't know who on this post is actually OUT when Bleu's crowd lets out after 2am on Fridays. It's pretty insane, lots of people...generally, what I expect from a city. I do usually see cops, but they're not often outside their cars...
It's not Bleu's problem. They didn't put a sign on the door saying, "please come shoot up my patrons." The problem, as I've seen stated again and again on this website, is that Bleu is located in one of the poorest cities in America, with children growing up in the worst public school system in America, with broken families and unbelievably easy access to guns. It has nothing to with hip-hop, clubs, late nights, or anything else of that nature. If Detroit has too many shootings, it's because our dropout rate for high school males is beyond belief, and the rate of teenage pregnancy is astounding. Stop blaming club owners and start blaming our school board and our mayor(s). |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 121
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 12:38 pm: | |
And yet another downtown club shooting to add to this list. When I first clicked on this article I thought it was in reference to the Bleu shooting, unfortunately, it's an entirely new incident. I never realized how many criminals were walking around downtown with guns... very, very frightening. By the way, the suspected motive for the murder is an argument over glasses.
"4 Arrested in fatal shooting at downtown club"
http://www.freep.com/article/2 0081206/NEWS01/81206046/?imw=Y
(Message edited by sparty06 on December 07, 2008) |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1223
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 2:42 pm: | |
Lessons that we (hopefully) learn as youngsters:
People drink and get drunk at "clubs"
Detroit, like many large cities, can be dangerous
The Freaks come out at night
....Do the Math |
W_chicago
Member
Username: W_chicago
Post Number: 63
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 2:50 pm: | |
This is the prefect story our IRRESPONSIBLE local media can EXPLOIT to further destroy the image of Detroit than it already does. Crime like this happens in every city, it just happens to most in Detroit because Detroit is the poster child of poverty and disinvestment and racism.
I remember being hearing "NEVER GO TO DETROIT" in the suburbs. "IT IS DANGEROUS." More dangerous that driving in a car on a suburban mega 9-lane road? I don't think so. I think suburbs are dangerous for mind, body and spirit. Detroit is dangerous too, but it least it has spirit. |
Daddeeo
Member
Username: Daddeeo
Post Number: 328
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 2:59 pm: | |
Have you been robbed at gunpoint or had your house broken into in Detroit?
Hasn't happened since we moved to the burbs.
Keep your spirit. I'll enjoy my safety. |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 3:20 pm: | |
W_Chicago,
I am a huge Detroit supporter and constantly tell my friends and family that downtown is safe but I really disagree with your post. The reality of the situation (like it or not/ right or wrong) is that shootings over glasses in downtown Detroit do create a significant perception issue for the entirety of Detroit. How can anyone feel safe walking around the Detroit bar/club scene at night knowing that agitators are coming downtown with guns seemingly looking for fights.
Certainly, a night at the bars in downtown Detroit is more dangerous than downtown B-Ham or Royal Oak or almost any other similar suburban location. When was the last time 4 people were murdered seemingly randomly within a 2 month span in downtown Royal Oak or Birmingham? Perception becomes reality which is why pro-active city leaders need to do things to combat that perception. Downtown Birmingham shutdown the Blue Martini because of fights and other incidents. Yes, fights happen at bars all over but shutting down this bar was in part a symbolic measure to show that downtown Birmingham cared about this problem and was committed to solving it.
I'm not advocating that Detroit shutdown these clubs but something needs to be done. Unfortunately, changing the perception of downtown Detroit can't be accomplished by simply pointing out that crime occurs in other cities. While it's true that other big cities experience this type of crime the reality is that in Metro-Detroit, nightlife seekers have plenty of safer alternative options which they will flock to if they "feel" safer. In Chicago, for example, there really are no good nightlife alternatives in the suburbs, everything goes on downtown. The perception of the City of Detroit in general and even the metro-region is shaped by perceptions of the downtown. The worst part of these shootings is that they weren't even just confined to criminal-on-criminal violence. The shooters fired weapons in public spaces around lots of innocent bystanders. I think anyone, in any city, would feel unsafe in this type of environment. As another example, contrast the absolute lack of a public response from any leader in Detroit to these shootings to a single homicide at a bar in New York City (http://www.downtownexpress.com /de_149/shutthefalls.html). Here, city leaders immediately moved to increase police foot patrol around clubs and bars and residents petitioned to have the bar closed (admittedly, this was a slightly different situation). These actions generate the perception that things will be safer and that the city is committed to a safe environment.
(Message edited by sparty06 on December 07, 2008) |
Cman710
Member
Username: Cman710
Post Number: 574
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 7:38 pm: | |
Sparty06, I agree. The violence is an awful problem, and some kind of visible action would not only help the problem but also make people feel more safe. If the mayor came out and strongly condemned the action and vowed that there would be stepped up patrols and police presence, it would deter potential wrongdoers and get good media coverage. |
Salvadordelmundo
Member
Username: Salvadordelmundo
Post Number: 127
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 9:54 pm: | |
How many arrests have been made in the Bleu shooting? It's one thing to have violence; it's quite another to have violence with impunity for the perpetrators. |
Bcscott
Member
Username: Bcscott
Post Number: 99
Registered: 05-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 9:58 pm: | |
One night earlier this summer I was walking back to the Milner with my girlfriend and another couple (who unlike me were fortunate enough to get a room at the Hilton.) The other couple had never been to Detroit and I was kind of showing them around. The guy says "Do you really feel safe here?" I told him it was downtown and there's nothing to worry about. Mind you this guy travels to Atlanta, China, and Indonesia regularly for his business. I told him he had a lot more to worry about in the places he goes. They both had a great time and have since been back on their own. I work with the other woman and I never bothered telling her about this incident.
I was downtown with the girlfriend after an evening at the DIA and dinner/drinks in Greektown the night this shooting happened. We drove right up Woodward an hour before the gunfire started. I understand Detroit can be a dangerous place but I'll admitt the violence downtown is enough to make me wonder if I've been living with a false sense of security when visiting. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1486
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 10:15 pm: | |
I saw Cockrel talk about ratcheting up the police work on Flashpoint, not specifically about this shooting, but in general.
I'd like to see some more action on that front, for sure. We've got the national media coming here in a month, and millions of dollars of investment as well as even more importantly, lives being lost, on the line.
Cockrel has the opportunity to impress a lot of people with decisive action and seal his re-election.
If I were Ferchill, I'd be calling his ass every single day. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 2710
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 10:19 pm: | |
So at the very least there have been 5 murders in downtown discussed in this thread. Where are all those people who throw out that bogus "Downtown Detroit is safer than Heaven" study now? |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1488
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 10:58 pm: | |
It's not bogus, Mayor_sekou. I've worked in both downtown New York and Detroit; and frankly, felt the same in both places. Keep your head up, and you're good. It's a city; you gotta be smart.
However, there is a trend - don't go to the club. But I don't frequent them anyway.
So far, it seems the problem lies in conjunction with clubs. So I guess be thankful for small miracles; and maybe there's a way to curtail this drawn up by a real law enforcement professional. |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 127
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 11:27 pm: | |
"Keep your head up and your good"
Tell that to the guy shot in the back outside Envy or the three people shot standing on the sidewalk outside Bleu. |
W_chicago
Member
Username: W_chicago
Post Number: 64
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 11:39 pm: | |
I think this begs the question of "What is safety?" and "who are we making the city safe for?"
Obviously we want the city to be safe for everyone, but in reality we know it is not. But neither is... take Livonia for example. My friends used to joke about the "DWB" or 'Driving While Black' crime in Livonia, and how it is not possible for people of color to get pulled over in Livonia without at least asking if that pursuit was not based on race rather than a legitimate reason... like spreading or running a red (something white folks get away with daily, that could mean huge problems for others). Getting pulled over might seem like no big deal, but for people of color it might mean hell... racial and sexual harassment, molestation, false charges, and more. This propensity to be exploited and become a victim reinforces and internalizes a sense of inferiority. An example would be a black person blaming his/her self for their situation, ignoring the institutions which DID have something to do with his/her position.
I hear so much about making Downtown Detroit "safe." But safe for whom? Safe for white suburbanites? Thats usually the assumption, even if unconscious or unspoken. Because look who you ignore when the focus of "safety" is Downtown, and the standards are set by white suburbanites... you completely ignore the devastation and crime committed against the people of this city. And the crime that happens in our neighborhoods outside of Downtown, the rape the murder the devastation. Or what about the crimes of the auto industry, white supremacy and racial segregation and flight. Or the crimes of giving affirmative action for white people but not for people of color (think Homestead Act, GI Bill, etc).
Sure, Detroit's neighborhoods are dangerous, in the sense that there is lots of murder and robbery. But crime is always committed by an external other or "them," NEVER a result of something "we" did or "I" did. Because in reality we are all responsible for this tragedy. A collective pathogen that is eating away at our society and our planet. One that divides people into hierarchical divisions based on gender, race, and role in the economy.
In brief, I guess what I am saying is that although folks who say "Detroit is dangerous and I don't feel safe there" should not have their feelings discredited or even that those feelings are not valid or without reason. Rather, I am saying that we shouldn't ignore the contextual fabric on which these murders occurred. That is my appeal: to hear more than one perspective, to understand the root causes of problems, and to look for bold new solutions and visions for the future. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 1074
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 11:49 pm: | |
quote:I hear so much about making Downtown Detroit "safe." But safe for whom? Safe for white suburbanites? How about safe for people who don't like getting shot? |
Mortgageking
Member
Username: Mortgageking
Post Number: 262
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 12:29 am: | |
W-Chicago,
Visiting a downtown free from the threat of being shot by a stranger and dying on an icy sidewalk is not a "standard of safety set by white suburbanites," its a universal standard.
I'm not sure what you hoped to do by introducing race into this discussion, particularly your grand "white supremacy' and "white affirmative action" distractions; a person being killed over a pair of sunglasses is an unacceptable event regardless of skin color.
Come up with a better-designed socio-economic explanation for inner-city violence and I'll listen. But my "white, suburban desire" for self-preservation is not a contributing factor to the violence that plagues this town. |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 128
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 12:51 am: | |
Mortgageking,
I agree with your post. This thread really wasn't focused on race or racial issues at all... there are plenty of other threads discussing those issues. And in response to W_Chicago, yes, there is crime in Livonia and everyone else but factually/statistically/object ively it is not anywhere near the crime level in Detroit.
What I hoped to do was draw attention to these shootings not to bash on downtown Detroit but to engage in discussion about what's being done about this crime. Just because we expect crime to occur in our city and downtown doesn't mean we should tolerate it or ignore it. Frankly, if the city doesn't show that it cares about crime that furthers the negative perceptions that people in our region already hold towards the city. I'm not saying this to hurt Detroit but to draw attention to issues that absolutely have to be addressed if we want people outside of the committed core to consider moving/living/working/playing in downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.
Finally, I'll throw in a little of my own personal opinion on how I think a larger crime strategy needs to be conducted to be successful in Detroit. First, it's a truth that the city doesn't have the resources or manpower to effectively police the entire area of Detroit. No matter what any of the current mayoral candidates promise there just isn't enough money to hire enough cops without drawing significant resources from other vital services like schools and city services. Detroit's ability to throw resources at this problem are only going to contract as the economic situation worsens here in Michigan. So, recognizing this reality I think we have to focus on strategic initiatives.
As I mentioned earlier, both Detroit itself and our entire metro-region are greatly shaped by perceptions of our downtown. We need to make downtown "feel safe" and actually safer. As this pocket and other strategically targeted zones are ridden of crime and re-vitalized the pockets of safe areas will continue to expand and grow as people recognize cheaper investment opportunities on the peripheries of the safe areas. I absolutely understand people who complain that neighborhoods are neglected when it comes to policing but because of the unbelievably grim situation we're in the city can't afford for cops to be everywhere at once. If it tries that approach, no place will be truly safe. Changing perceptions about downtown is critical to the cities development, that's one of the reasons the TEDC crime study was commissioned. Shootings like the ones mentioned above that garner media attention (not making a statement about the fairness of what areas garner media attention and what don't) are incredibly detrimental to perceptions about the entire city. This is especially true when people see absolutely no response or action from the city leadership. It makes it appear that incidents like this are either so commonplace that the city doesn't care or that the city is in such a horrible position that it doesn't have the resources to even make its downtown safe. I'm not saying that my approach is the best approach in an ideal world. I'm just saying that I think it's one of the few strategies that can effectively work in the current environment.
edit: I don't mean in any way to imply that neighborhoods should be ignored but simply to state that we have to think critically about how we use limited resources.
(Message edited by sparty06 on December 08, 2008) |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 12:43 pm: | |
Folks,
Best advice & realistic commentary on this situation would be: look for things to get worse, before the situation improves.
Violence of this nature, has always flared during difficult economic times. |
Rjlj
Member
Username: Rjlj
Post Number: 763
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 1:05 pm: | |
These two Detroit events were not random acts.
and don't go to New York anymore because the violence from Detroit is spreading to that perfect city. Actually, don't ever leave your house again.
http://gothamist.com/2008/12/0 8/early_morning_flatiron_doubl e_shoot.php |
Diehard
Member
Username: Diehard
Post Number: 650
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 1:29 pm: | |
Violence of this nature, has always flared during difficult economic times.
Let's not blame the economy in this case. I doubt the shooters were laid-off autoworkers looking to feed their families. These were the usual suspects, the gang-sign-flashing knuckleheads who deal drugs and rob people of their designer glasses and probably don't even know how bad the economy is, except that maybe there's less out there to steal these days. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3670
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 1:34 pm: | |
quote:and don't go to New York anymore because the violence from Detroit is spreading to that perfect city. Actually, don't ever leave your house again.
And yet another woman has gone missing (and is likely dead) after a night out clubbing in Manhattan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12 /08/nyregion/08missing.html?re f=nyregion |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2839
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 1:40 pm: | |
quote:Explain.
Just because it happened outside the doors does not make the establishment immune of the aftermath.
It depends on the circumstances but just because something happens outside does not mean they are free and clear. |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 1230
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 1:54 pm: | |
Diehard....with regard to (the lack of) a direct link between current economic woes & the incident at Club Bleu, you are likely correct.
In the larger sense, I believe that a certain edginess prevails when times are tough; comments and/or actions that might otherwise be ignored or written-off can lead to much larger issues when folks are hard-pressed....stressed.
We should brace ourselves for higher homicide rates. |
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