 
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 5285
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 11:07 pm: |    |
Only problem folks, is that the crisis in the auto industry isn't a natural disaster, nor is it an obvious eventual outcome. This is a result of decisions made by people, and given "bailout fatigue", I'm not surprised at polls.
I don't see it so much as a desire to kill the American auto industry, the UAW, or the State of Michigan, as it is that people who are financially struggling are tired of seeing the government hand blank checks to people who made terrible business decisions. |
Mopardan
Member
Username: Mopardan
Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 11:13 pm: | |
This isn't the same industry that many of us either grew up with or were exposed to by our parents. Even with the embargo of '73, my brother & his friends were still arguing over whether Chevy, Ford or Mopar was tops. A few years later it was my turn to argue the merits of a Dodge over Ford & Chevy. Fast forward to the 90s & all the kids are driving imports, the "tuner" crowd. Now THOSE kids are adults driving imports. I can't even talk cars with the young guys at work because they slam on anything domestic. To them, Toyota, Honda & Nissan have ALWAYS been here. They have no clue or idea that at one time "Made in Japan" meant you were buying the cheapest piece of crap known to man.
The US Auto Industry has a serious image problem; throw in the common notion that everyone in the UAW earns $70/hr & things don't look good. That's not to say the situation is hopeless; it just makes it tougher.
Another aspect is what the Information Revolution has wrought; parents don't want their kids even thinking about getting a trade or a blue collar occupation. And today's kids don't even remotely consider it. What many don't realize is that while the industrial base of this country erodes, those computer jobs are steadily being sent overseas.
One piece of advice is to be positive & proactive. Get yourself & other people involved by calling or writing not only your own Reps & Senators, but those of other states(Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota & Wisconsin immediately come to mind). The point has to be driven across that this doesn't only affect just Detroit or Michigan, but a region & eventually the entire country.
The U.S. has always been a place for second chances; at least the Execs & UAW are giving the impression they're trying to do the right thing. The bottom line is that it comes down to people & whether they act or just let things fall where they may. One of my favorite movie quotes is "I'm mad as hell & I'm not gonna take it anymore!". So don't take it anymore & make something happen. |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 560
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 11:42 pm: | |
I'd like to know how the rest of the country is going to accomodate the 4 million refugees from Detroit who will show up on their doorsteps when the Big3 go out of business. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6490
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 11:53 pm: | |
The myth that keeps getting floated around is that all of the Big Three were ran more horribly than any other company in the country. The truth of that matter is that it is the AIG's and Citigroup's that failed directly because of mis-mangement, yet they aren't asked to submit shit to Congress besides a request. At least two of the Big Three did leave much to be desired in management, but the possibly of insolvency surrounding at least these two is not a direct result of mismanagement, it is the result of a near-frozen credit market thanks to the fuck-ups on Wall Street.
Let's get it straight, before the credit crisis, the worst thing that GM was facing was falling from the world's number 1 auto producer to the number 2 auto producer. They'd been laying off and closing factories for years up until now, and had already planned to close more. Their impending in insolvency is directly effected to the credit crisis caused by the real mismanagers on Wall Street.
The Beltway can not seriously prop up a bunch of white collars, who BTW could find other jobs if their companies failed, and then allow the largest sector in American manufacturing to go under and get bought up by folks from abroad. If they do, I expect a few tens-of-millions of the effected folks go to the Capitol steps, pull down their pants, and take the biggest dump they've ever taken right their on the Capitol. Clean that shit up, Congress. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 1478
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 11:58 pm: | |
I was going to write a long rant because I'm so pissed. And then, took solace in that Obama is going to do the politically tough and right thing if we can get to the end of January (although not that tough because everyone will forget by four years from now).
Instead, I share some links.
First, Jim Cramer's video is wicked awesome.
http://www.cnbc.com//id/276478 52
Second, Mopardan, Tell your congresscritter they're an idiot and will be personally responsible for the loss of over 300K jobs.
http://theengineofdemocracy.co m/impact.html |
Flanders_field
Member
Username: Flanders_field
Post Number: 1356
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 11:59 pm: | |
I think that the domestics are doomed, the bailout is merely delaying the inevitable. The aftermath is going to affect the standard of living for many, if not most Americans.
Perhaps our state government would be wise to woo and embrace the next wave of Chinese and Indian automakers and offer unprecedented incentives to build some or part of their vehicles here in MI, w/o the constraints of the UAW.
The US is too deeply indebted to the Asians, and it is extremely unlikely that any tariffs or restrictions will be enacted against nations whom we will continue to borrow billions from to keep our economy afloat in a sea of "red" debt, and indirectly fund our "wars" against terrorism.
Might as well get in on the ground floor of the global economy, and maybe Detroit could become China II and wipe out the Japanese and Korean vehicle market share in the US with a flood of more inexpensive vehicles. Revenge is a dish best served cold. |
Huggybear
Member
Username: Huggybear
Post Number: 348
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 12:00 am: | |
quote:I don't see it so much as a desire to kill the American auto industry, the UAW, or the State of Michigan, as it is that people who are financially struggling are tired of seeing the government hand blank checks to people who made terrible business decisions. No "terrible business decision" is behind what is going on right now - except the decision of the federal government not to force banks to actually loan out the bailout money they have received. Or to do something to make the American public think the sky is not falling.
Cars are bought on credit, and suddenly, there is a financial meltdown and no buyer-side credit to be had. Auto companies that do hundreds of billions in sales a year, operate in an environment with fixed costs that cannot be ramped down instantly, and that operate on razor-thin margins cannot take a 30-40% hit to revenues - even if they start with a ton of cash. Every auto maker in the United States is geared for a market that's at least 50% greater than the market today.
"Well managed" companies like Toyota are really faring no better - except that they have bigger bank accounts. Toyota has had its second month in a row that is significant double digits in the hole, and it can't even move cars with zero percent financing - something that points to consumer confidence as an equally huge impediment. Add in a few million lost jobs and a couple of points to the national unemployment rate if the domestics tank, and confidence will sink even lower.
And Toyota's finances are beginning to deteriorate too. The bond rating went down slightly (not a big deal except where the rating historically has been perfect). Further, the amount of shareholder equity already destroyed at that company this year is about half of the company's peak value - and many, many times the market capitalization of GM. Finally, Toyota is likely burning as much cash as GM is - because it is operating in all of the same depressed markets, has the same depressed sales, and despite the absence of unions (for the most part) cannot just do a cold shutdown to save money.
I don't think the issue is assembly jobs. The issue is losing - all at once - primary engineering, production engineering, tool and die production, and other industrial know-how. You can always nationalize a transplant factory in wartime, but unless you have someone who can convert it to efficiently making weapons, it's useless. |
Philbo
Member
Username: Philbo
Post Number: 46
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 12:00 am: | |
I hate to say it but what makes you think the Bridge Loan will guarantee the future success of the Big 3. I'm a U.A.W. retiree but I am expecting them to go "Belly Up". Anybody know where I can get a cheap Mobile Home in the country? |
Retroit
Member
Username: Retroit
Post Number: 562
Registered: 04-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 12:11 am: | |
The Mobile Homes will be provided by FEMA. |
Mashugruskie
Member
Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 308
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 12:29 am: | |
Here's AIG's latest. (Groan)
AIG Offers First Takaful Homeowners Insurance Product for U.S.
December 2, 2008
Risk Specialists Companies, Inc. (RSC), a subsidiary of AIG Commercial Insurance, is introducing what it says is a first in the U.S.: a homeowners insurance product that is compliant with key Islamic finance tenets and based on the concept of mutual insurance.
The Takaful Homeowners Policy is underwritten through RSC member company A.I. Risk Specialists Insurance, Inc., in conjunction with Lexington Insurance Co. and in association with AIG Takaful Enaya. Headquartered in Bahrain, AIG Takaful Enaya was established in 2006 to provide Takaful products, including accident and health, auto, energy, property and casualty products.
The Takaful home policy is the first installment in Lexington Takaful Solutions, a series of Shari'ah-compliant (Takaful) product offerings in the U.S.
According to Ernst & Young's 2008 World Takaful Report, Takaful was estimated to be a $5.7 billion market globally with over 130 providers in 2006. The Takaful market is estimated to be in excess of $10 billion by 2010.
Takaful is similar to mutual insurance and cooperative risk sharing but there are key differences including a clear segregation of funds owned by participants and those owned by the insurance operations entity. Investments of funds are also restricted to avoid companies involved in entertainment, alcohol, pork and other elements prohibited by Islamic law.
Muslim countries only account for 5 percent of the global insurance market although they represent 25 percent of the world's population, according to AIG, which launched its Takaful operation in October 2006.
The Takaful Homeowners Policy builds on LexElite, the homeowners policy from Lexington that is sold throughout the U.S. The Takaful Homeowners Policy is available in all 50 states.
According to Jim Crain, associate vice president and personal lines underwriting director for Risk Specialists, the coverage, terms, commissions and sales proceduers are the same for this new products as they are for LexElite.
"The introduction of Takaful products in the U.S. represents an important and emerging growth opportunity for AIG Commercial Insurance. We are pleased to offer socially responsible solutions to this segment of the domestic market," said Matthew F. Power, president, Risk Specialists Companies, Inc.
AIG Takaful Enaya is licensed by the Central Bank of Bahrain and its Shari'ah Supervisory Board is composed of Shari'ah scholars Sheikh Nizam Yaquby, Dr. Mohammed Ali Elgari and Dr. Muhammad Imran Usmani.
Risk Specialists Companies, Inc. is a U.S. surplus lines broker providing access to specialty casualty, property and personal lines insurance from Lexington and other AIG companies. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 5286
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 12:39 am: | |
quote:No "terrible business decision" is behind what is going on right now - except the decision of the federal government not to force banks to actually loan out the bailout money they have received. Or to do something to make the American public think the sky is not falling.
I agree that the bailout of the finance sector has been horribly implemented. Without that bailout, though, our country faced the entire collapse of not just Citibank and AIG, but the whole of the finance system, and anything and everything dependent upon that system. The results would have been completely catastrophic. I'd like to know, however, which "sound" business decisions were made by the Big Three that forced them to rely on loans for cash flow. The automakers were simply unprepared to weather a financial storm, a process that took at least 35 years to develop to this point.
Yes, foreign automakers are hurting too. BMW sales are down over 25%. Are they teetering on the brink of complete collapse, though?
Throwing cash at the Big Three isn't going to solve their structural problems, and we can't "hope" that they come out alive after they burn through our cash in a few months. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6492
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 12:58 am: | |
Danindc:
German auto industry predicts grim 2009
Sweden: Bring On The Auto Bailouts
French President: Won't Allow French, European Auto Industry To Fail
Ottawa seeks expert help on auto sector restructuring
Individual foreign companies:
BMW Sales Plummet 36.1% Mini Sales Explode 43.1% In November
Toyota sees 34% drop in U.S. sales
Honda sales plunge 32 percent in November
You'll never see this on TV save for a blurb or to. As someone said, because of being a bit more nimble, they have larger nest-eggs, but that's about the end of it. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5779
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 1:05 am: | |
I find it very interesting that the Japanese companies are slowing down and even closing facilities in Japan due to low demand in the US market yet are keeping US facilities open. Convince me that's not got some PR spin to it. |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 9724
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 8:13 am: | |
Anyone know of a good buggy-whip company to invest in? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 8004
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 8:56 am: | |
Here's what happen if Congress doesn't approve the bridge loans:
1. Ford, Chrysler and GM will be forced to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The company will have to re-structure, re-organize, liquidate and downsize their workforce until it may reach into a classic automobile company.
2. Lay-off up to thousands of workers throughout the U.S. Canada and Mexico causing their suppliers to be lay-off result up tp 2.5 million workers.
3. If they can't sell a decent car or make a decent profit, then they have no choice to either shut down or merge with other foreign car companies. Other small American car companies like Saturn, Mazda, Buick, Chevrolet ect... will have to break away from the big three and try to make it on their own.
4. If Ford, Chrysler and GM shut down, Detroit dies and the suburbs die. There would be mass exodus of people leaving the city and suburbs to other states. Detroit would be downsized to village with lots a vacant and abandon buildings heavily protected with the Michigan National Guard the its neighborhoods bricked up or torn down into a urban prarie until nature reclaim the land into a deciduous forest. Same goes with the suburbs,too. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 8005
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 9:12 am: | |
People these days just lost interest in the capitalistic free market these days. But there are speculations are a rise in communism in some nations.
First the youth is persuaded that the proletarian class is the solution to the capitalist nightmare and then the older folks would run for their lives. Once communism is being set up in some foreign nation, every enviroment and their way of life would be tamed into a collectivization workforce where you MUST make your quota or else! Free speech, religion is eradicated and anyone who rebel against the communist regime will be killed It's going to happen if our would leaders don't think of a solution to provide jobs for the people.
If capitalism fails, try communism. If communism fails, try capitalism. If any system fails try anarchy. |
Lpg
Member
Username: Lpg
Post Number: 104
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 9:50 am: | |
Just to show how Congress is in touch with the real world, did anyone catch the grand opening of the Congressional visitor center in DC ?? Tens of millions of dollars over budget. A monument to themselves, no matter what it costs. Experts one and all on how to use taxpayer money. Some were gushing about the wonderful experience visitors will have when they visit Congress. Who is going to visit them ?? The special interests already have a key to the back door. The average American is concerned about food on the table, not seeing how lavish those people can live. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 5288
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 9:55 am: | |
quote:Tens of millions of dollars over budget. A monument to themselves, no matter what it costs.
Yup. It was all the change orders for gilding and platinum plating that drove up that project cost. Now, what were you saying about the proposed automaker bailout?
Maybe you and CCBatson can start a thread entirely about your cynicism toward Congress. |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 10575
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 10:38 am: | |
The loan will probably come but now the assholes who run the USa are bickering over where the money should come from. Whether is coems from TARP or the Energy sector, what difference does it make? It is still coming from the gov't.
Partisan politics at it's finest... |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3665
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 11:48 am: | |
Detroit needs a national media outlet. Wall St was able to drum up so much sympathy because the media is their next door neighbor.
I have yet to see a mainstream media segment even allude that impending collapse of Detroit is because of what Wall St did. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 5291
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 11:59 am: | |
quote:I have yet to see a mainstream media segment even allude that impending collapse of Detroit is because of what Wall St did.
Yeah, because until the Wall Street collapse, the American automakers were immensely profitable, right?
Why is it always the media's damn fault? "It's the media's fault that Detroit is portrayed in a bad light." "It's the media's fault that the automakers are getting the shaft." "It's the media's fault that the economy sucks."
Maybe the media sees the forest while you're looking at the bark of the tree. Ever think that if you're the only one who's right, you might be missing something? As far as I've seen, only people in Michigan are blaming the government and Wall Street for the shit mess that's been festering for the past four decades. And when someone points it out, you all take it so personally, as if the rest of the country wants to see you sitting on the couch collecting unemployment.
Christ. No wonder Michigan is fucked. A good kick in the ass might be the proper motivation to start cleaning things up and begin embracing the 21st Century. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5783
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 12:12 pm: | |
Michigan is fucked because Michigan is one of the few states that has historically supported the lame ass debtor states for the last 25+ years - some of the same states whose people are actively working against us now.
When do we get some return on our investment? Or do we have to forcibly take it? |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 3666
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 12:31 pm: | |
^Slow down cowboy, I'm not a Detroit apologist. I fully know that they have screwed up in the past, but they are in Washington today as a direct result of what has happened in the credit markets for the past 8 months. It only makes sense that they would be the first affected since consumers can't get credit to buy their products, right?!
The truth is that no business is prepared for 40-50% declines in sales in one year. That is an extraordinary circumstance that was not under their control. Anyone who claims that it is something they could forecast is seriously naive. So with this in mind, I am not comfortable with bad decisions made by greedy bankers potentially turning out the lights on the dominant sector of American manufacturing.
If you don't believe me about the media bias, here is a sample of the articles written in Time recently about Detroit's crisis:
Is General Motors Worth Saving? http://www.time.com/time/busin ess/article/0,8599,1858702,00. html?iid=sphere-inline-bottom
Is This Detroit's Last Winter? http://www.time.com/time/busin ess/article/0,8599,1864168,00. html?iid=sphere-inline-bottom
And my personal favorite:
Why are we so mean to the car companies (and nice to the banks)? http://curiouscapitalist.blogs .time.com/2008/11/24/why-are-w e-so-mean-to-the-car-companies -and-nice-to-the-banks/
In fact, this last one is worth taking a closer look at:
quote:Still, I wonder if there aren't also some other factors at work in the relatively hostile reaction to the Detroit Three. Most Americans simply no longer identify with the domestic auto industry (or with the states of Michigan and Ohio). To the Southerners who now make up the core constituency of the Republican Party, it's a bunch of coddled, unionized workers trying to get handouts that the South's auto industry (Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW ...) doesn't need. To the coastal urbanites and suburbanites who now make up the core constituency of the Democratic Party, it's an industry that makes crappy big cars and fights against higher fuel efficiency standards. And to the business press it's the worst thing of all: a trio of companies that are neither exciting nor financially successful.
I mean it's straight from the horses mouth... And personally, as a resident of the "east coast elite", I have to say that it's a pretty much spot on assessment! |
Lpg
Member
Username: Lpg
Post Number: 105
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 2:01 pm: | |
Danindc,
The big 3 caused a lot of their own problems. Is letting them go under the best solution ? What about Wall Street ? Should they be allowed to fail also ?
Since when is it un-american and cynical to ask for your moneys worth when your tax money is spent ? A visitor center does not create thousands of jobs. A lack of faith in how government operates comes from observing how it conducts itself. |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 10582
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 6:13 pm: | |
Michigan can do what they do in Kuntuckey and Georgia and just build plants for virtually free (no taxes for 20 years, 1/3 taxes for 15 years...)at least they have jobs.
sarcasm off. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 2978
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 9:12 pm: | |
These blank-eyed stooges in other states drive through small towns there and out past the Ford or GM plant and are too stupid to realize, if it wasn't for that plant, the town would just a be a wide spot in the road. All over the south there are plants and shops directly related to the automotive. People in two or three counties surrounding that plant rely on it for their very survival. If the Big 3 fail, states like Kentucky and Tennessee will fold overnight and return to 1933 levels of existence. CCC or DPW anyone? Coal mine, moonshine or move it on down the line? 3 R's the schools teach, Reading Righting and Route 43.  |
Cjd
Member
Username: Cjd
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 9:26 pm: | |
An interesting quote from 2006 by then-Senator Obama, indicating that the new democratic Congress would provide the assistance to the Big3 that the Dems felt that President Bush would not. When speaking about the Big3/President Bush meeting in 2006 that, according to Dems, was not helpful for the Big3's position, Obama indicated:
"My hope is that the president and his staff are working to examine these approaches [on trade issues and health-care within the auto industry]," Obama said yesterday in an interview. "I can assure you if the president doesn't take the lead, the Congress will." ( Washington Post, November 15, 2006; Page D01)
I'm not sure now-President-Elect Obama could have been more wrong about Congress tackling the problems...the two hearings seem to indicate Congress would rather the Big3 drop dead. |
Ggores
Member
Username: Ggores
Post Number: 500
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 9:35 pm: | |
Congress should not "take the lead" on anything but warfare/welfare. When Barack sang a couple lines from "Chain Of Fools", he wuddint siging WITH you, he wud singing AT you. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2972
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 9:38 pm: | |
What will most likely happen is bankruptcy, (bk). The senators told Wagoner they are ok with a managed bk.
The federal govt and EVERY state will then have to face paying hundreds of billions of dollars to millions of people and businesses when the ripple of job losses and pension defaults permeate every state.
As the old Fram ad said.... |
Wykkidx
Member
Username: Wykkidx
Post Number: 84
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 10:08 pm: | |
I almost would like to see the Big 3 fail, just to watch the carnage happen with the suppliers going out of business and all the restaurants near the auto plant and the suppliers plants go belly up. It would be like a large lake drying up, all the streams that feed off it will dry up as well.
The the congress can try and figure out what to tell all the american workers that lost their jobs, even tho they may not have been directly serving the auto industry. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6494
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 10:12 pm: | |
Dan, the banks were given hundreds-of-billions so they could get loans moving again. So, what they'd go do with it so far? Use the bailout money to buy other banks and hoard the money. Yes, a huge part of the Big 3's troubles reside in the fuck ups on Wall Street, and no amount of spin is going to change that.
You will not find an auto apologist among us, here. If you think any of us believe that any of the Big Three to be model corporations, you're flat wrong. But, if you really want to get into a pissing match over the lesser of two evils, well it couldn't be more obvious. Banker mismangement lead directly to the collapse of the credit market, period. Instead of keeping it simply they got greedy and tried to peddle imaginary "investment instruments" and push non-existent derivatives. They are the sole cause of their downfall, period. And, again, the Big Three's imminent crisis is an indirect result of mismanagement. The Big Thee's mismanagement has led to them having perpetually low reserves and poor credit ratings forcing them to go to the government looking for loans as opposed to conventional credit sources (banks). Only when the worst recession to hit us in decades has occurred has their mismanagement led indirectly to possible insolvency.
Really, you don't want to get into a pissing match between Wall Street and Detroit this time around, because the Big Three's mismanagement makes Wall Street mismanagement look amateurish.
Here's the deal for Congress: They can either pay for a relatively cheap innoculation from the recession, or they can pay for a helluv'an expensive funeral and burial.
(Message edited by lmichigan on December 04, 2008) |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 446
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 10:13 pm: | |
Here's the kicker: If the Big 3 go under, what incentive does the foreign transplants have in maintaining present wages when their competition is gone? Wall Mart wages for those in the right to work states is on the way. These naysayers are setting the trap for their own downfall too! |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 899
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 10:29 pm: | |
"If the Big 3 go under, what incentive does the foreign transplants have in maintaining present wages when their competition is gone?"
And there will be a mass exodus of autoworkers out of Michigan to the south to compete for those jobs. That's only going to serve to drive down wages even further. |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 447
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 10:30 pm: | |
Wykkidx, are you serious?
Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES would I be willing to see shuddered factories, foreclosed homes by the millions, rampant crime, hungry and cold friends and strangers, just to have the perverse pride of having to say,"I told you so". The self absorbed idiots in Congress are there because we put them there. Both sides should share the blame over the past 30 years of gross mismanagement and the lack of a solid Industrial Policy. Not freewheeling free markets, not oppressive regulation, but a cultivated, channeled America first policy. We cannot save the world with a weak back and wobbly knees. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 2973
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 10:53 pm: | |
Wykkidx, funny, reminds me of the george carlin routine he used to do.
The worst is yet to come, don't say I didn't told you so. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5785
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 11:49 pm: | |
They're still playing politics
http://blogs.abcnews.com/polit icalradar/2008/12/dems-give-bu sh.html |
Mashugruskie
Member
Username: Mashugruskie
Post Number: 317
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2008 - 8:32 am: | |
Received email this morning:
1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?
Answer: United States.
Per J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study, Mercury and Cadillac are in the top 3, along with Lexus. And in 2007, Buick was tied with Lexus for the top spot.
http://www.jdpower.com/corpora te/news/releases/pressrelease. aspx?ID=2008115
2. As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?
Answer: Volkswagen.
According to Business Week, Volkswagen had the most recalls at this time a year ago. The second worst was Toyota.
http://www.businessweek.com/au tos /content/aug2007/bw20070810_45 5098.htm
3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.
a. Answer : Cadillac (better than both Acura and BMW)
b. Answer: Mercury (better than both Honda and Nissan)
c. Answer: Chevrolet (better than Acura, BMW, and Mazda)
This is according to J.D. Power’s Initial Quality Survey.
http://www.jdpower.com/corpora te/news/releases/pressrelease. aspx?ID=2008063
4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?
Answer: The Chevrolet Malibu has better initial quality than any competitor, including the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima. The Ford Fusion also beat all three Japanese competitors.
This too is from the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, which also reveals that above average are American brands Mercury, Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet , Pontiac, Lincoln, and Buick. Below average are import brands Acura, Kia, Nissan, BMW, Mazda, VW, Subaru, and Scion (and several others).
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/a rticles/2008-Initial-Quality:- Midsize-and-Large-Cars
http://www.jdpower. com/corporate/news/releases/pr essrelease.aspx?ID=2008063
5. Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?
Answer: Again per J.D. Power, the highest quality large car is the Pontiac Grand Prix, beating the Toyota Avalon. Two other Detroit cars that beat the Avalon are the Mercury Sable and Mercury Grand Marquis.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/a rticles/2008-Initial-Quality:- Midsize-and-Large-Cars
6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?
Answer: The Dodge Dakota has the best quality for midsize pickups, proving that Chrysler too can beat the imports. Both the Dakota and the Ford Ranger beat the Toyota Tacoma.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/a rticles/2008-Initial-Quality:- Pickups-and-Vans
7. Which car is the most economical overall?
Answer: Per Edmunds.com, the premier automotive analysis site, the most economical car in America, taking into account not only mileage but all costs, is the Chevrolet Aveo. The Honda Fit is #3 and the Toyota Prius is a distant #34.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/ab out/press/127806/article.html
8. Which car did the Los Angeles Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?
Answer: “Cadillac makes a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti, and that car is the 2008 CTS. No other car in the mass market dares so much as this expressive and audacious bit of automotive avant-gardism.” Dan Neil, LA Times. (It might be interesting to know that the latest sales figures for full size luxury cars had the new Lincoln MKS at #3, just behind BMW and Audi, but ahead of Lexus and the Cadillac CTS.)
http://www.latimes.com/classif ied/automotive/highway1/la-hy- neil12dec12-pg,0,5427133.photo gallery
9. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?
Answer: The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid is the winner of this award. How could a full-size SUV defeat the media darling Toyota Prius? Read the link below and you will discover,
“What’s equally eye-opening is that the Tahoe’s 21 mpg city fuel efficiency rating is the same as that of the city EPA rating for the four-cylinder Toyota Camry sedan.”(The new F150, non-hybrid, also gets 21 mpg highway.)
Did you catch that? A huge, full-size SUV from Chevrolet that gets the same city mileage as a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry!! Chevy obtained this remarkable achievement through the use of its 2-mode hybrid system, a technology that Toyota does not have.
http://www.greencar.com/featur es/2008greencar/
10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?
Answer: Not only was the Saturn Aura picked by the automotive press corps as better than the Honda Fit and the Toyota Camry, “When a panel of 47 journalists named the Saturn Aura the North American Car of the Year over the Toyota Camry, the vote wasn't even close, 205-89.” Chicago Tribune, 1/15/07
http://www.northamericancaroft heyear.org/news.html
11. Which car won the same award for 2008?
Answer: GM again crushed the Japanese competition in 2008 when the Malibu received 190 votes to the Honda Accord’s 95. The Accord actually came in 3rd since GM’s other finalist, the Cadillac CTS, received 165 votes.
http://www.northamericancaroft heyear.org/news.html
12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removedfrom the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in Oct ober 2007 because of mounting quality problems?
Answer: Toyota’s much publicized quality problems resulted in Consumer Reports actually removing from their recommended vehicles list the Lexus GS luxury car, Camry V6 sedan, and Tundra pickup. This demotion occurred in October 2007.
This Q &A list was put together by an employee of an American car company who just might lose his job because of public perceptions that do not match reality. If you are one of the many Americans who gave up on Detroit’s cars because of a bad experience many years ago, it’s time to rethink your position. Rethink Detroit.
Detroit automakers: 79 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.
Foreign automakers: 33 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 8006
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2008 - 8:40 am: | |
Who's the big blame in this capitalistic free market?
President George "retarded" Bush for the rediculous trade policies that resulted for thousands of American jobs gone in a couple years.
Or the democrats in both the white house or the senate who have been forced by the republicans to plana bailout bill for both Wall Street and the Big Three automakers. |
Hans57
Member
Username: Hans57
Post Number: 372
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2008 - 2:06 pm: | |
It's too bad we're only preaching to the choir here.
Mashugruskie, you should post your findings on http://current.com/
Have you ever heard of it?
I hope the mention of this site isn't against the rules... |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 6502
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2008 - 12:48 am: | |
Danny, I wouldn't be throwing around the slur "retarded" like that. And, people in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones, if you catch my drift.
(Message edited by lmichigan on December 06, 2008) |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 2119
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2008 - 4:39 pm: | |
White House: Constructive auto talks with Congress
It looks like Pelosi has "blinked" and backed off her refusal to allow the already-approved $25 B to be used for a bridge loan.
I hope her face didn't hurt too much when she blinked. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5796
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2008 - 5:04 pm: | |
Not 'blinking' would have been stupid. Obama probably had to get on the phone with her and tell her to stop being a partisan idiot. In two months time when Obama takes office she'll have all her damned 'green' money back. |
Townonenorth
Member
Username: Townonenorth
Post Number: 452
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 9:01 am: | |
If I were a Democratic member of the House of Representatives,from Michigan or other automaking states, I'd love to see them form a coalition to remove her as Speaker. I'm sure that somewhere in that body is a better, more representative (ironic) choice. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 5802
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 9:05 am: | |
A fundamental problem is that California now has 53 Representatives and that's a huge block to overcome.
(Message edited by lilpup on December 07, 2008) |
Townonenorth
Member
Username: Townonenorth
Post Number: 453
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 9:28 am: | |
I'd probably think that they all don't vote and think the same. But, realistically, we are left with what we have, for now.
I'd pin our hopes upon getting some favorable treatment from the new administration, transit and manufacturing support. |
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