 
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5477
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 1:24 pm: |    |
Upon further review...
The nonelectrifying Sparky was up a bunch (10 points) with ten minutes left to go in their last regular Big Ten game, gets tied with five minutes left, and loses by nine. Twenty-one turnovers...
Dominant?! Gotta go to the Kohl Center for any sign of that.
(Message edited by Livernoisyard on March 09, 2008) |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 594
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 8:05 am: | |
LY,
You know the state of Michigan basketball has fallen to the point of utter disgrace when they have to rely on Ohio State to try and "win" an argument.
I love how my even though my original point was that MSU still dominated Michigan, someone bumps this thread every time MSU loses a game.
That's fine. Whatever it takes to get you guys through this long winter before RichRod brings your glorious football program down Hindenburg style. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5479
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 1:21 pm: | |
Tough, that you had so few reasons to crow about MSU this year, after your original post...
Was that the same UM football team that lost to what was formerly called Appalachian State Teachers College in Boone NC (predominately female student body, BTW).
The UW Badgers never lost to any such low-level football team. Is UM the team the RichRod will resurrect from its Phoenix ashes? |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1732
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 2:42 pm: | |
ZZZZZzzz
Uh, most Universities have a predominantly-female population, including, holy shit, UW-Madison, with a 52% majority. Indeed, the nation and world at large is predominantly female.
I seem to recall that amazing Badger team losing their bowl game as well.
(Message edited by focusonthed on March 10, 2008) |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5483
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 9:16 pm: | |
Yup! Couldn't express it better myself. Thank you!
ZZZZZzzz (with respect to both UM and MSU football and basketball)
Talk about fair-weather Michigan fans and their declining fan support base this current sports cycle... Just wait till next year(s), right?
Still, it's hard to fathom that MSU BB is still ranked at #19 this week--down two pegs. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5523
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 3:37 pm: | |
MSU came close in the BTT... but no cee-gar. Maybe, next year? |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 603
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 6:42 pm: | |
Depends. How much is Bo Ryan going to pay the refs next year?
Seriously. That was one of the most embarrassing pieces of officiating I have ever seen. MSU was CLEARLY the dominant team in every aspect of the game except fouls.
Here are some stats to think about. In an equally aggressive and physical game. MSU picked up 30 personal fouls, had all three of its starting front court players and one backup front court player foul out.
Wisconsin, on the other hand, only picked up 18 fouls and had no player on their squad with more than 3 fouls.
Let's move on to free throws. MSU made 14 of 19 free throws. Wisconsin made 26 of 37. That's a BIG free throw disparity there, don't you think?
In fact, Wisconsin had one player who scored 11 points. NINE of them were from free throws. Another scored 9 of his 18 from the line.
Seriously, it is an absolute shame that the team that was playing better on the court had a victory stolen from them by the refs in that way. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5532
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 11:58 pm: | |
Yup! Blame it on the refs, again! They're anti-MSU, for sure!
Wisconsin shot only around 25% for the first half, and not a helluva lot better in the second half. Would EJ feel any better if the Badgers shot halfway decently throughout the game and if MSU, as a result, would have lost by a helluva lot more than two points? It seems that way... |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 604
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:26 am: | |
Actually, Bucky's shooting percentage helps my point even further. Even when Wisconsin wasn't getting "fouled" they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. MSU was shooting lights out the majority of the game.
The mass foul calling against the Spartans and the ensuing free throws were the only things that kept Wisconsin in the game and then let them win in the end. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5535
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 1:44 am: | |
Maybe the Spartans only play three quarters of many of their games, especially those they lost. Maybe, they don't have enough anerobic/aerobic conditioning to play an entire game. Who knows? But blaming the refs time and time again near the end of the season gets a bit lame--listening-wise.
OTOH, the Badgers did have an excellent defense throughout the season, and their stats bear that out. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 605
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 8:50 am: | |
Conditioning? Conditioning wasn't the issue in this game! The issue was that MSU's starting front court was thrown out of the game unfairly by the refs. Look at the number of minutes that MSU's starters played compared to Wisconsin's.
MSU
Morgan 22
Suton 18
Naymick 15
Wisconsin
Landry 32
Krabbenhoft 34
Butch 32
Only one MSU big man played more than one half's worth of minutes. If you think this is because of conditioning rather than biased, one sided foul calling by the refs than you are absolutely delusional.
Also, here is another stat that shows that something is wrong with the officiating. Once again, Ed Hightower reffed an MSU game. I hate to single out a man but I feel the need to point 3 things out about Ed Hightower.
1. MSU is 3-8 when Ed Hightower is calling the game over the last 3 seasons. (conference & BTT). I don't need to point out MSU's overall record of that same span of time to show how that winning percentage is VASTLY different than MSU's overall winning percentage
2. Since 2006 MSU's opponents are + 44 in free throw attempts when Hightower is calling the game. MSU: 101 Opponent:145
MSU doesn't cry foul after every lose as you wish to imply. For example, last time MSU lost to Wisconsin a few weeks ago, they were flat out beat. Nothing to it. However, this time they were completely robbed by the refs.
Lastly, I'll believe Wisconsin is dominant when they can translate their "outstanding" play to the tourney. I'll give Bo Ryan credit when he has the type of tournament resume that Tom Izzo does. When MSU gets away from Big Ten refs like Ed Hightower who like to take over the game and have something against MSU, they excel. When Wisconsin gets outside the Big Ten and their refs, they aren't nearly as successful (see Duke).
In the end, if false victories and blatant cheating by referees is what it takes for Wisconsin and their fans to be happy, then they can keep their false championship because if you don't actually earn something than it has no meaning. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5538
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 9:55 am: | |
Besides, Madison is about twice the size of Lansing, and UW has more students than MSU (even more than UM). To deny their bars all that added alcohol consumption in Madtown would be criminal. Obviously, Hightower was on the take from the Tavern League in Wisconsin, especially its Madison contingent.
In the meantime, those in wee wee Lansing can cry in theirs--beer, that is... |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 606
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 4:20 pm: | |
MSU fans aren't the only ones crying foul.
Drew Sharp, a UM alum and consistent critic and naysayer of MSU sports in general agrees that the refs stole the game.
http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20080316/SPORTS0 7/803160558
The Associated Press comment about the unusual number of foul calls and while not being critical, at least they admit that the fouls and the refereeing impacted the outcome of the game.
http://www.startribune.com/spo rts/gophers/16711486.html
The Chicago Tribune has a thinly veiled comment about how the refs impacted the game in this column
http://www.chicagotribune.com/ sports/cs-080315-wiconsin-mich igan-state-big-ten,1,7042569.s tory
Lastly, even the Ann Arbor News, in the heart of Michigan's journalism "Blue Wall" had this to say about the officiating in the game.
http://www.mlive.com/spartans/ index.ssf/2008/03/somethings_r otten_in_big_ten_b.html
It is not just MSU fans who saw something wrong or at least strange. Even the media, including media that is not considered to be pro-MSU, are crying foul.
All I have to say is that we will see which team last longer in the NCAA tournament. It is a FACT that a team that relies on the free throw line for 40% of their points (like Wisconsin yesterday) will not go very far. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5540
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 4:46 pm: | |
Didn't the Wisconsin Badgers shut down both UM and MSU this year in the BTT? Might that explain this tandem bout of whining in Ann Arbor and Lansing?
Did the team from Ann Arbor show up late for their game? That game's score seems to say so. Musta been bad officiating there too, huh?
BTW, the Badgers were slated at the start of the Big Ten season to be a third or fourth place team. Yet, after the BTT, their Big Ten stats are 19-2!
(Message edited by livernoisyard on March 16, 2008) |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 607
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 7:59 pm: | |
does UofM even have a men's basketball team? Nobody knows. Nobody cares. What does Michigan have to do with an MSU-Wisconsin basketball game?
I love how I've brought actual facts and statistics about the game to support my case and you haven't provided squat to support your argument. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5543
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 10:00 pm: | |
I don't have a problem with my alma mater--yet. We'll see how they do in the big game(s).
MSU is playing where, in the South? As a 5 seed? That's probably higher than they deserve. But that's how it works.
Hopefully, UW makes it to Detroit. Where, they'll probably lose to Georgetown...
Not a good tourney year for the Big Ten. Only four in.
BTW, I don't care squat about your actual facts and statistics. That's oh so yesterday. Call into the sports talk shows and piss, bitch, and moan for all the good it does you.
You started this thread when MSU was probably unbeaten, and you also took a stab at UM while gloating about MSU. But then, things and events took their turns for the worse (worst?). But you won't get to see your team in Detroit. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 608
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 8:09 am: | |
I'm guessing, that choking sound is already beginning to be heard coming from Madison as the "vaunted" Wisconsin program begins their usual tournament flop as Bo Ryan takes his 8-6 tournament record with Wisconsin into March Madness.
I will give Bo Ryan credit. He builds teams that can win in the big ten. To win in the big ten, you need to play soft defense. The reffing in Big Ten games is so ticky tacky that if you don't play physical defense you can limit your opponents points by simply keeping them off the free throw line while they rack up foul after foul on you.
However, this plan backfires when you get to the NCAA tournament when the Big Ten refs aren't doing the games. The refs from other conferences let a lot more of the physical stuff go. and that non-physical defense that works so well in the Big Ten turns soft.
That's the difference between Tom Izzo and Bo Ryan. Sure Bo Ryan has won 4 conference championships in 7 years, but he's only been past the 2nd round twice and only once to the elite 8.
Tom Izzo has 4 conference titles in 11 years. He's also made it to at least the Sweet 16 in 6 of those 13 seasons. 5 of those 6 seasons they went on to the elite 8. 4 of those seasons they went on to the Final Four and one of those Final Four trips resulted in a National Championship.
Come tourney time, until Bo Ryan can prove otherwise, I'll always like MSU's chances over Wisconsin's. |
Kenp
Member
Username: Kenp
Post Number: 1070
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 8:11 am: | |
4 Big Ten teams in the big dance. The whole big 10 is awful.
MSU gets called a foul because its a foul. They are physical and aggressive, thats the Izzo style. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5545
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 11:13 am: | |
American sports are often loosely officiated because the fans prefer a more physical game. NBA and pro hockey, especially. When those teams play internationally where the rules of the sport are followed by the refs, US players often lose due to their lacking style and finesse and adherence to the rules.
Some of this occurs too at the college level. So, some players, fans, and coaches bitch their players get called for their fouls when tighter officiating occurs. MSU players had been criticized on this account throughout the season for their being somewhat "uncoachable and dumb."
So, some will naturally bitch whenever the rules are enforced as they should. I remember following basketball decades ago and remembering how often those games were interrupted so often by fouls.
Those ref whistles were going nonstop as the game would go for only a few seconds between fouls. And many players fouled out. Fouling out today is relatively rare, especially in the NBA. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2161
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 11:16 am: | |
Wisconsin plays a physical and aggressive style as well I don't see them with 30, 40, 50+ free throw differentials.. The foul differential is astounding for all teams and the Big Ten needs to do something about it becuase the game is suffering on a national level. |
Kenp
Member
Username: Kenp
Post Number: 1071
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 2:47 pm: | |
I have noticed in the last couple years that the home team does get an advantage in the Big 10.
MSU was undefeated at home this year and average on the road. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 609
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 8:17 pm: | |
Kenp,
I've noticed it too. The issue involving Big Ten referring is not isolated to just this one game or those two teams. There is a chronic problem with officiating in the Big Ten and it effects EVERY team at some point. It has dramatically degraded the quality of the product on the court and it is hurting the Big Ten come NCAA tournament time.
However, all of that being said, The MSU-Wisconsin game was the most blatant example of Big Ten refs overstepping their role and decided the outcome of the game themselves. |
Kenp
Member
Username: Kenp
Post Number: 1072
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 8:55 am: | |
El_jimbo,
I didnt see the game, but from what I heard it was poorly called.
My theory on the home cooking is to get more of the average teams wins against top teams in order to help them at tournament time. Its total BS to me.
I think there may be a reason MSU does so well in, most years, the tournament. Also I will add, MSU was damn good this year in non league games. |
Zephyrprocess
Member
Username: Zephyrprocess
Post Number: 599
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 10:26 am: | |
quote:MSU was undefeated at home this year and average on the road. Fan support may have a more obvious effect on that, rather than a home-team bias in the officiating; e.g.,
http://www.thepalestra.com/pla yer.php?id=2902 |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 610
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 11:46 am: | |
Zephyr,
Fan support does play a factor, but it is a bigger effect in some arenas than in others. For example, The Kohl Center at Wisconsin is a far more intimidating place to go into than Penn State's Bryce Jordan Center. MSU got flat out beat by Wisconsin in their regular season game at the Kohl Center because of the quality of the Wisconsin team and the environment. MSU's loss to Penn State was due to the fact that MSU didn't show up to play that game and the refs gave Penn State 51 free throw opportunities. |
D_mcc
Member
Username: D_mcc
Post Number: 482
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 10:41 pm: | |
Looks like a great win tonight for the Sparty's over pitt!
GO GREEN! |
Detroitstar
Member
Username: Detroitstar
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 11:11 pm: | |
Great weekend for MSU...they finally showed how well they can play when not turning the ball over 20 times. On to Houston! |
Meaghansdad
Member
Username: Meaghansdad
Post Number: 259
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 11:15 pm: | |
This kid Lucas, he might be gone after next year!Enjoy him now, Sparty!! |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1750
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 2:03 pm: | |
That would surprise me. He's got a lot to learn yet, and he's not putting up Eric Gordon numbers.
Lucas will be back for at least 1 more year. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 2124
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 10:17 pm: | |
It looks like the season might be over tonight fellas. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5651
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 10:28 pm: | |
MS: Buck up, lad... MSU was only down by thirty points at halftime--now 34 points down. MSU is a great fourth-quarter team (last ten minutes), aren't they?
Actually, MSU stinks up the house often during the final ten minutes...
The entire Big Ten is outta there... |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 2126
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 10:43 pm: | |
Well now its 24. |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 7433
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 10:45 pm: | |
Dunna look good. It was a fun run when it lasted. But then up against a number one seed with as much talent as Memphis, it was tough sledding.
Ain't nothing to be ashamed of. Tom Izzo is still probably one of the best coaches in collegiate basketball. He milked this team for as much as he could in this tournament. No shame in losing to a team like Memphis... dagnabbit. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 2127
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 10:46 pm: | |
Well now they are on a 12-0 run so who knows? |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 7437
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:00 pm: | |
Thanks Mayor_sekou... it's probably not kosher or PC of me to bury a team just yet. I can still hope as a fan that they'll pull it out but admittedly when I chimed it earlier, it looked pretty dire. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 2129
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:04 pm: | |
Well at least they're fighting now if we go out go out with honor against these Persia..Tigers. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 2130
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:09 pm: | |
15 now. Chris Allen is ballin. |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 7438
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:41 pm: | |
Again, nothing to be ashamed of. I think the Spartans played well and hard. They just met a juggernaut in Memphis who's clicking on all cylinders. I was really hoping that Drew Neitzel's 3 pointer would start hitting and keeping them close, but alas... no luck.
Bravo to the MSU team for making it this far. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 614
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 8:17 am: | |
tough game. Loved how they never quit. One thing that is for certain. Memphis flat out exposed the lack of athleticism that MSU has had in recent years. I think that both teams had equal basketball skills, but Memphis was CLEARLY taller, faster, stronger, and more agile.
As strange as it sounds, the biggest thing I took out of the game was hope. MSU's most athletic players also happen to be their youngest players. Morgan, Allen, Lucas, and Summers are all very skilled, very athletic players. Lucas has all the makings of a star, Allen looked very good in the second half during his "audition" to replace Neitzel at the shooting guard spot for next year, and next year's most interesting position battle will be between Summers and Morgan as they push each other to win that SF/Wing spot.
Add to this the fact that next year's freshman are almost as athletic this years freshman with bigs like Delvon Roe and Draymond Green, and an exciting looking point guard in Korie Lucious.
Also, there is the wild card that Tom Herzog presents. As a redshirt freshman he went 7 foot 230 lbs and his lanky frame wasn't strong enough to play significant minutes. However, if he could ever fill out, he could become a quality player in the middle.
It's hard to knock "the Drews" because they played so hard and are great Spartans, but clearly they were a prime example of Izzo taking their limited athletic ability and coaching every single last ounce of potential out of it. If Izzo can do the same thing with his returning players, then MSU could be in for a special run comparable to that 1999-2001 time frame with Mateen, C Bell, Mo Pete, and Hudson. |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 7451
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 10:12 am: | |
Well said el_jimbo. That's what make Tom Izzo one of he best and most respected head coaches in the nation.
I've always thought that his magic was in his ability to motivate and use what he's been dealt to the fullest. No offense to the Flint-stones era but they weren't the most talented team in the nation but they did play as a team and they complimented one another well. Izzo was the architect of that team and made them a winner. He came pretty darn close with this year's team as well until he came up against a buzzsaw in Memphis.
Tom Izzo is going to do fine and will keep that program going strong for years to come. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 615
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 10:23 am: | |
Smogboy,
I would give a bit more credit to the Flintstones. J-Rich has been an "almost star" player in the NBA for the better part of a decade and is a former slam dunk champion. Mo-Pete has been a solid sixth man type player for numerous teams during his NBA career. C-Bell has also had a solid career in the pros. Mateen has bounced around getting a few stints with teams and has been playing in the developmental league.
Moral of the story is that if 4 out of 5 starters have at least spent a little bit of time (if not more) in the League you can't say they weren't a talented bunch. |
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