 
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 870
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 9:59 am: |    |
See this article for something new: Manny's proposed new Bridge, a cable-stayed bridge, is a type that is fairly untested for safety. No one told us that before.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070724/M ETRO/707240348&theme=Metro |
Pete
Member
Username: Pete
Post Number: 84
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 10:30 am: | |
Now, I am in no way a Manny Maroun sympathizer, but that is a ridiculous assertion. Basing my personal opinion on my litany of civil and environmental engineering classes, a cable-stayed bridge is perfectly safe when designed appropriately.
Here is a link to a cable-stayed bridge in France for which the main span is about 600 feet longer than the one proposed here:
http://bridgepros.com/projects /LePontde%20Normandie/LePontde Normandie.htm
It's a pretty weak page, but there are plenty of other examples from around the world that you can find. |
Upinottawa
Member
Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 916
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 10:33 am: | |
Windsor Star's coverage:
http://www.canada.com/windsors tar/news/story.html?id=23d266d 6-65e5-44cf-bb37-9d1acaab698e |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1330
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 10:56 am: | |
The problem is not the design itself. It is the fact that there are serious environmental issues as well as congestion along Huron Church, that it does not address. This will significantly increase the capacity of the road network by adding 6 lanes and keeping the 4 existing ones. Do you not think this will impact traffic, air quality, quality of life, or noise for the area surrounding the bridge?
Should not the developer of the bridge take this into account? Especially when it may lead to further expenditures in the future by the cities, state and province to fix the mess he creates? |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 749
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 11:13 am: | |
A study of rain vibration:
http://www.asbi-assoc.org/news /research/index.cfm?aid=14 |
Southwestmap
Member
Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 872
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 11:44 am: | |
Rb336, thanks. I knew that there is an issue re: cable-stayed bridges because recently such a bridge opened in Maine and the press coverage indicated that it (The Penobscot Bay bridge) COULD help make a positive case for cable-stayed bridge construction - implying that the jury is still out.
Maroun's cable-stayed bridge would get a lot of truck traffic. I'd like him to use a more tested construction. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 629
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 1:07 pm: | |
it's not like cable-stayed bridges are a new, untested technology, although granted, they are newer than suspension bridges, they didn't just start building them a couple years ago or anything.
As for the Penobscot Narrows Bridge, i think the reason they said that was for other reasons - not that 'the jury was still out', but that the bridge was designed and completed in a relatively short amount of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P enobscot_Narrows_Bridge
Also, suspension bridges have certainly had their own problems with vibrations in the past as well, but it's nothing that can't be handled with proper design, as is the case with cable-stayed.
I'd agree with detroitplanner for the most part, the real issues here are primarily how it will affect residents. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 555
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 1:12 pm: | |
Of what construction was the infamous Tacoma Narrows Bridge? (Since we seem to have some engineers in the room.) |
Rsa
Member
Username: Rsa
Post Number: 1179
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 1:32 pm: | |
must read the article carefully; it doesn't say they are untested for safety. it says: quote:The Federal Highway Administration, which is backing a plan for another bridge farther down the river, contends the height of the proposed bridge towers could interfere with operations of the Windsor Airport and that there are "very significant structural security vulnerabilities" associated with cable-stayed, or supported, bridges. meaning that this style is more vulnerable to a terrorist attack. |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 2726
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 1:50 pm: | |
EPA blasts plan for twin span to Canada |
Chow
Member
Username: Chow
Post Number: 396
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 1:52 pm: | |
Here is an elementary explanation of the Tacoma Narrows incident, if anyone can add anything please do:
Tacoma Narrows was a suspension bridge. Needed numerous additions though; tie-down cables and inclined stay cables were added to try to reduce the movement.
The bridge was under-designed in regards to dampening ability. It was very narrow, in terms of length to width, and the deck girders were only 8ft thick. Essentially, the engineers failed to design for redundancy in torsion.
And it failed due to wind induced twist. |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 2727
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 3:03 pm: | |
Cause of Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 3:24 pm: | |
Tacoma Narrows was a suspension bridge much like the Ambassador or Big Mac. |
Slider
Member
Username: Slider
Post Number: 13
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 6:09 pm: | |
ODOT just recently finished construction on a cable stay bridge on I-280 in Toledo. This was also the single largest construction project ODOT had financially undertaken. The jury is still out for me as to whether this would be good for the border crossing, but I point it out just for perspective (and for those who have not seen or traveled on one to take a short road trip to see).
Also, the central pilon has glass panels and is backlit with colored lights to pay homage to the city's history of glass production, which is pretty cool. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1334
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 6:19 pm: | |
I heard that that I-280 was ODOT's biggest project, but there are some pretty huge bridges in Cleveland's flats that I would assume cost more. Maybe the City built those? |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 776
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:23 am: | |
I love cable-stay bridges. doesn't that one in Tampa carry a lot of commercial traffic?
I still want to see a tram across the river |
Andylinn
Member
Username: Andylinn
Post Number: 452
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
i don't care about the structure of the bridge, i'm sure it will be fine... what is not fine is that f****** Maroun is building it in a vibrant immigrant neighborhood. come on, ass hole, build it somewhere else. i will do anything to help stop this... anyone have any ideas? maybe if we're lucky he'll croak before it comes to this... maybe his kids will have some common sense. I just don't understand.... it seems like EVERY mayor in the past 50 years of detroit history (ironically with the exception of kwame) has done something similar...
(demolished an active neighborhood to make way for "progress"... usually a failed or shitty project... i.e. the projects, freeway expansions, poletown plant, or the warehouse district) |
Downtown_dave
Member
Username: Downtown_dave
Post Number: 144
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 10:22 am: | |
Tampa's Sunshine Skyway Bridge is a cable-stayed bridge - and quite beautiful. Traveling over it, you can clearly see the dampers attached to the base of each cable to help control rain vibration. (See RB336's post, above.) This was the bridge that had a support rammed by a freighter in 1980, causing a section to fall in the water. Thirty five people were killed. |
Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 255
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 10:17 am: | |
Just to be clear...the bridge that was there before the cable-stayed version of the Sunshine Skyway bridge was the one that was hit by the freighter. The current bridge has concrete dolphins protecting the piers. |
Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1748
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 10:25 am: | |
while i have nothing to add about cable stayed bridges, driving through the area recently i noticed a lot of work being done on the south/west embankment of the freeway in the vernor and porter areas along the service drive and whatnot. could this be prep work for an as-of-yet non-approved maroon crossing? |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 861
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 10:44 am: | |
That is possibly an expansion for the truck plaza |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 263
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 10:57 am: | |
The work your talking about is part of the truck plaza. MDOT calls it the Gateway Project. It has involved a great deal of work along I-75 in recent years to prep for it. |
Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 256
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 1:31 pm: | |
Funny you bring up that project. The pedestrian bridge they're building there near Bagley will be a cable-stayed bridge. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4955
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 1:53 pm: | |
Am I mistaken when I say that the alternative site bridge (closer to Zug Island) will tear up another neighborhood? Isn't the alternative bridge plaza footprint going to be so large that it will go nearly to Fort Wayne?
So for Detroit, that option is better in what way? |
Downtown_dave
Member
Username: Downtown_dave
Post Number: 146
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 3:58 pm: | |
Thanks DNVN22 for clarifying my post.
Do they really refer to the pier protectors as "concrete dolphins?" Interesting name... |
Pipdid
Member
Username: Pipdid
Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 4:42 pm: | |
As a former Detroiter, I only visit this forum occasionally, so there's a lot I don't know about the proposal. But I'm surprised that people don't seem more excited about the possibility of a second bridge. Cable-stayed bridges can be incredibly beautiful and graceful. It could make a striking addition to the Detroit skyline.
In Boston where I now live, the Zakim cable-stayed bridge is seen as the one real bright spot of the infamous Big Dig project. It quickly became the new symbol for the city, even though it's much smaller than a new Detroit span would be.
Are pictures published of the proposal?
I realize there may be real downsides, particularly if it will destroy a neighborhood. It also might be kind of difficult to transform the additional traffic as it zooms through into any kind of an economic boon for the city. |
Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100
Post Number: 1276
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 4:46 pm: | |
This puts the new span in better perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =qrVM_ReGCSE |
Goat
Member
Username: Goat
Post Number: 9611
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 5:26 pm: | |
What a joke! Japan seemed o.k to build a 600M span and they have numerous earthquakes a year.
I guess their engineers are better than ours since they can build a bridge and we can't. They seem to be able to build a car much better than we can taking into consideration the overall automotive environment here. |
Pipdid
Member
Username: Pipdid
Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 5:50 pm: | |
Thanks Scs100.
Here's a photo of the Milau cable-stayed bridge in southern France that spans a valley with several towers. It's the highest bridge in the world, but the spans are shorter than the Detroit bridge.
|
Quozl
Member
Username: Quozl
Post Number: 1066
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 11:22 pm: | |
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Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 961
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 1:34 am: | |
Is it just me or is it going to look really stupid having the new bridge and the old bridge side by side? |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5876
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 2:40 am: | |
Perhaps, two bridges right next to each other is odd, but it really wouldn't be because of differing styles, IMO. Is it stupid to have an historic building next to a modern tower just because they are of different styles? I really don't think so. |
Rivertowner
Member
Username: Rivertowner
Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 10:06 am: | |
Mistakenly posted this in another thread. Copies of several agencies' responses to the Ambassador Bridge company's environmental assessment (which was submitted to the Coast Guard in an attempt to fast-track the permitting process for the twin span) can be found here:
http://www.eastriverfront.com/ ?p=112 |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 637
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 10:20 am: | |
quote:Perhaps, two bridges right next to each other is odd, but it really wouldn't be because of differing styles, IMO.
So would you put this bridge next to the Golden Gate? Mackinaw? Brooklyn Bridge? Keep in mind, it's about twice as tall, and its appearance isn't very impressive. If it was something really good looking, I may change my tune, but this is disappointing at best when it comes to aesthetics. |
Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 1836
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 10:31 pm: | |
Bringing this thread back to Southwestmap's original topic -- Apparently a major bridge can still collapse in this day and age...
|
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 644
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 11:02 pm: | |
That was a 40-year-old bridge of a totally different design from a brand new cable-stayed as is proposed for the twin span. Not to mention there was ongoing construction work at the time; although it's too early to tell, that certainly may have contributed to the collapse. Although tragic, the two bridges have little in common. |
Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 1837
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 11:31 pm: | |
Yeah, I know, and I think a new cable-stayed bridge would be safe. Still, seeing that on the news tonight was pretty shocking, and reminded me of this thread. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 646
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 11:37 pm: | |
I won't deny it, this thread was one of the first things to come to my mind too... |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5007
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 12:17 am: | |
I don't care for having a 2nd bridge right next to the first bridge. The span may be a twin, but the bridges look nothing alike. The new bridge has towers that look like narrow football goal posts, but much taller than the Ambassador spans.
Since they would be so close together, I would have preferred an exact twin of the Ambassador Bridge, although I realize how unrealistic that is.
It's just that having the beauty of bridges across the Detroit River, it would nice if the 2 bridges were at least a mile or two apart.
Having a stay cable bridge with taller towers over by Zug Island would probably be much more esthetic than 2 odd sized bridges right next to each other.
That said, I am appalled at the huge footprint of the USA plaza and toll area of a (near) Zug Island Bridge. It would decimate a huge swath of SW Detroit.
At least with a 2nd bridge at the Ambassador location, most of the land area has already been obtained.
So there's pros and cons for both sites. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3885
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 1:15 am: | |
Forget how it looks. Consider the track record of the Maroun the Vampire and his Bridge Company. Consider the folly of one man controlling a major border crossing and putting profit before national security.Consider the years of lies and deception by the bridge company.
I attended a meeting in 1995 at which Detroit International Bridge Company assured Detroiters that they were going to restore the Michigan Central Station. Consider that this company considers themselves above the law and have embarked on their own construction projects in the area without permission from the city.
Consider that if there is a building without any windows in the area, it is owned by DIBC.
Consider that the infrastructure on the Windsor Side is unable to support the additional traffic that a second span would create. Last but not least, consider that residents on both sides are opposed to a second span and have been pointing out the lies and bully tactics of the bridge owner and his paid stooges, Kwame Kilpatrick and Carolyn Cheeks-Kilpatrick for years. |
Wolverine
Member
Username: Wolverine
Post Number: 353
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 2:47 am: | |
"Yeah, I know, and I think a new cable-stayed bridge would be safe."
They said a similar thing in the late 80's when they built the Zilwaukee bridge up in Saginaw which has a segmental concrete bridge deck system similar to what is used in cable stays. The difference is columns as opposed to cables. Near the end of construction --- collapse. This was due to heat expansion. Bad assumption that the engineering was 'safe' at the time.
It's clear cable stays have been safe so far because there haven't been any significant problems, but I would hope every possible scenario would be studied whether its our dynamic weather to the type/quality of concrete used in the structure. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 647
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 9:02 am: | |
The main cause of the Zilwaukee accident was that construction loads were too heavy (the equipment was far heavier than the normal auto traffic it would have), not heat expansion. Nor did it 'collapse'.
http://www.michiganhighways.or g/indepth/zilwaukee_report4.ht ml |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3897
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 8:14 pm: | |
Article in the Christian Science Monitor on the issue:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/ 0802/p20s01-lign.html?s=hns |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 2824
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 8:26 pm: | |
quote:Cross from Detroit to Windsor, for example, and voilà ... radio station call letters all begin with K rather than W. Huh?
It's not like Christian Science Monitor to make a mistake. What am I missing here?
I understand that, in general, the dividing line between K & W is the Mississippi river but in Canada it's C, right?
Thanks for the article though.
(Message edited by Jimaz on August 02, 2007) |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 724
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 2:39 am: | |
More news about the bridge(s) today...
State officials say two new billion-dollar bridges from Detroit to Windsor are a possibility, despite previously discounting the idea...
"The DRIC and Ambassador Bridge projects complement one another," DRIC officials say in a 16-page questions-and-answers report posted this month on their Web site.
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070822/METRO /708220397&theme=Metro-Bridges |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 150
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 8:10 am: | |
Gistok-
You are correct in your assertion about Fort Wayne. The impact to the Fort will be SUBSTANTIAL and will butt the bridge right up against the east side of the Fort. If they pound pilings, it will cause the walls to COMPLETELY FALL, not just partially. When I raised concerns with the City Rec. Dept. about this, I was given the "....it will bring many more visitors to the area...." speech, "....just as the Mackinaw bridge brings many tourists to Fort Michilimacinac..." (sp?). WTF? Don't these folks realize that a MAJORITY of the traffic relegated to the new bridge will be trucking? I don't see many of them interested in history, certainly not the amount of folks needed to support the Fort!!
I am waiting for the day they start that project, because I will forever abandon my attempts at bringing the Fort back. It will be a waste of time at that point. |
