 
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 217
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 11:27 am: |    |
Hmmm, Spidergirl, good ideas. Maybe contact Travelers Aid and find out what is happening with them?
Adding to the Resource list! |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4545
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 11:30 am: | |
First off we don't pay "trillions" in welfare. Nor to I believe this effort is necessarily exploitative. I merely question whether this is actually as effective part of the solution to Detroit's unique homeless problem. In five years since the Washington DC paper started, only 14% of sellers moved into permanent housing. Hardly a success story.
And Oakmangirl, honey, welcome to the real world. If you start discussing a topic expect dissent. No one has been disrespectful to you and your compatriots. No one is taking shots at the homeless. We are only offering honest and valid viewpoints on the issue. If that is too much for you to bear, well, too bad. |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 11:30 am: | |
Wow, I am constantly amazed when I realize that every single action has a detractor. Even if Streetwise only helped one person, what would it hurt those who aren't even involved? Yet it is already irking people who don't have to invest one red cent of their tax money or other monies. Simply amazing... |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 219
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 11:36 am: | |
14% is a lot of people helped though. No one is expecting 100%, no matter what is done. |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4546
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 11:38 am: | |
http://www.netmba.com/econ/mic ro/cost/opportunity/ |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 206
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
"Wow, I am constantly amazed when I realize that every single action has a detractor."
Doesn't it suck? Not surprising though given the previous ignorant generalizations made by the same people over and over...why don't they get off their asses and start a "DetroitNO!" forum; there is an anti-Ann Arbor blog...they could use it as a model.
I love the cowardly lion approach too; many lie in wait for one negative post, then there's an onslaught of quips with nothing of real substance added that hasn't already been stated. |
Quozl
Member
Username: Quozl
Post Number: 1350
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
There already is a DetroitNO Forum Oakmangirl, it is DetroitYES! |
Detroitrulez
Member
Username: Detroitrulez
Post Number: 365
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:05 pm: | |
this idea is stoopid. |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 170
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:13 pm: | |
Hey folks-
The State got involved when they helped create this mess over ten years ago, closing mental health facilities and disgorging hundreds if not thousands "homeless/panhandlers" onto the streets of Detroit. Jelk and Stash are correct in their assertions.
This overwhelmed the public sector thoroughly. There has never been a "fix" to this problem, even when the mental hospitals were open. Institutionalizing someone is never the answer, in my opinion, and with the State economy the way it is, I wouldn't expect any changes soon. I "delivered" patients to Lafayette Mental Health Clinic, Eloise and many other pshyc hospitals and clinics all over Detroit when I worked for EMS in the early 80's, and those places were not the answer, either. The faith-based initiative is really the only thing in between for many now.
I am a bit stymied by the negativity here as well. I can't believe that anyone would encourage people that are at least trying to do something that their effort will be wasted and for naught. I don't necessarily believe they will succeed in their attempt either (see the comments that I posted citing the exact same things you are here in the panhandlers or bums post), but I'll be damned if I'll discourage anyone from trying to make a difference.
Like grandma always said, if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 207
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:15 pm: | |
Do you mean "stupid"? Or, does stoopid have something to do with sitting on the stoop mindlessly criticizing others who actually give a fuck? |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 328
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:16 pm: | |
Quote: "Could you all kindly take the negativity elsewhere?"
What negativity? I offered up advice to get the state involved. They can do in a few hours what it would take a band of concerned citizens years to accomplish. Organize a group then lobby state legislators. You'll get way more accomplished like that than running up and down the sidewalk trying to help people that probably don't want your help in the first place. How is that being negative?
To move in a positive direction which was suggested.. we all know what the opposite of positive is. And it can also be said that addressing the problem inefficiently is also prolonging the problem instead of arriving at a long term solution for it. In other words: as long as you're running up and down the sidewalk the state is not getting involved.
Jelk, We really do spend trillions on welfare. Between 1965 and 2000 we spent over 8 trillion. We now spend more annually than we did in those years. |
Susanarosa
Member
Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1632
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:18 pm: | |
I don't see how any of the prior posts were discouraging these folks.
Some offered opposite viewpoints and some offered alternate strategies. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 208
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:22 pm: | |
Sst.- that negativity comment wasn't necessarily directed at you.
"I think some of these relief programs are really just exploitation of street people for fun and profit. It's just panhandling on a much larger scale."
This exploitation is a concern of mine; I'm aware it happens, this is why I said three times now that we're researching things! |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 171
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:25 pm: | |
It doesn't surprise me that you don't see the negativity, as you are one of the offenders.
Just what are you doing to help out personally? Or do you feel that you couldn't make a contribution anywhere?
Also, how is it not discouraging to be called stoopid or told that your ideas won't change a thing? I wonder what Ghandi would say to that? Only 14%, huh? If it helps one person to change their lives for the better, it is better than anything the State or City has done in the last 50 years. |
Susanarosa
Member
Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:28 pm: | |
quote:Also, how is it not discouraging to be called stoopid or told that your ideas won't change a thing?
You honestly take Detroitrulez seriously? |
Plymouthres
Member
Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 173
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:30 pm: | |
Both him and you, Susanrosa! |
None
Member
Username: None
Post Number: 32
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:16 pm: | |
Urbanoutdoors
Posted a good link with the who, how and why of homelessness from the people that have been there, It's a good read and would change a lot of out dated preconceived notions that some are basing their argument's on
http://www.handetroit.org/
The Chronically Homeless
Men and women who are chronically homeless have survived prolonged periods of time on the streets or in other places not meant for human habitation. These are the individuals who struggle with significant health, mental health, and/or substance abuse problems, and are often the most resistant to receiving treatment and services. Having spent extensive lengths of time on the streets, these men and women generally require intense, on-going support services to regain and maintain stability in the community. Although the people who fit this description are frequently the face that enters a person’s mind when he/she thinks about “who is homeless”, estimates tell us these individuals make up a small proportion of the entire homeless population. In Detroit, at any given time there are approximately 1,400 individuals who can be considered chronically homeless. They represent only about 10 percent of the entire homeless population.
There are close to 14,000 men, women, and children who are homeless. A homeless population this large has many and diverse needs, such as mental health care, substance abuse treatment, job training and placement, education, health care, transportation, and much more.
Potentially there are 10.000 homeless that need a hand up not a hand out, welfare is just a trap and has not, nor will it ever resolve more problems than it has created |
Detroitrulez
Member
Username: Detroitrulez
Post Number: 368
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:24 pm: | |
quote:Do you mean "stupid"? Or, does stoopid have something to do with sitting on the stoop mindlessly criticizing others who actually give a fuck?
What kind of racist crack is that? Just because I sit on a stoop means I'm an ignorant (albeit critical) stoop-sitter?" A lot of homeless folks sit on stoops too....Why did you mention the Anti Ann Arbor blog? Do you live there? Ahhhh, hokay....now it all makes sense.
Looking forward to my hot-off-the-presses limited Dee-troit edition of Streetwise....with bonus toothpick flags! Maybe they could also sell Grit and Burpee Seeds. |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4547
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:40 pm: | |
None,
Estimates made by whom? That information wasn't sited in your post. I went to the website you mention but could not find the article you reference in your post.
Regardless, I'm not sure how how newspapers sales are going to help the transient homeless, many of whom actually have jobs. Homeless children for instance need to be going to school, not schlepping newspapers. Battered woman and teen-age runaways fleeing bad domestic situations, are not chronically homeless. Do you really believe selling newspapers is the answer for these people?
Sorry but the numbers on this issue don't lie. These homeless newspapers are an inefficient use of resources in the effort to combat homelessness. The "if it helps one person..." argument is intellectually dishonest. If a dollar or man hour spent of the "helps one person" program could be used in a more effective way to help many, than that dollar or man hour was wasted. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 223
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:48 pm: | |
Well, we started looking into this as a way to make relations between panhandlers and other people a bit more harmonious, not solve ALL the homeless problems in one fell swoop. Let's all of us interested parties remember that. |
Susanarosa
Member
Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1635
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:53 pm: | |
So it's much more harmonious to have them pester you to buy a newspaper than to buy a flag on a toothpick?
Alrighty then. |
Detroitrulez
Member
Username: Detroitrulez
Post Number: 373
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:57 pm: | |
I think they should open B&B's...fix up some of those cheap run-down buildings yet historic buildings we hear so much about. Maybe Joel Landy can employ them in some kind of noble cass corridor social experiment. They could give out the newspapers and flags with the breakfast.
(Message edited by detroitrulez on August 29, 2007) |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 329
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
None,
Great post and resource.
I still don't buy the notion that the private sector should take on the enormous financial undertaking that lie ahead in resolving the issue of homelessness.
The reasons welfare doesn't always work is due to implementation. Agreed, writing checks with no accountability or plan is not a solution. However a state funded housing/work program could be effective and a reality.
Provide housing with an emphasis on rehabilitation as a thrust. No one gets paid unless they comply with the program. The program could consist of work training and basic social skills/habits such as going to work everyday, taking personal responsibility etc.
Treat it as any other. You don't show up for training or work you don't get paid. They're drunk or high, they're out of the program. Granted, most employers are not willing to rehabilitate someone. Though many do.
Housing could be handled at small multi-unit facilities. Work training could be handled at larger industrial facilities. And this city has both in abundance.
And before someone starts screaming, there are no jobs here. Worktrain the ones that are able to be and find them employment elsewhere. Arrange transportation at the completion of the program. Then they have an address and a reference. To rehab them and turn them back to the streets without employment is just going to be one long expensive cycle.
There possibly are programs that mirror this, if there are then anyone that wants to help, should just offer them help. Instead of starting more.
There is always going to be homelessness. And some are beyond help. Thats probably the worst case, one's that need help and do not even realize it. They have lived that way so long they adapted to the conditions and only something drastic would ever bring them back.
Then there are the truly mentally ill and the state needs to do something about them. |
None
Member
Username: None
Post Number: 33
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
Jelk
"Estimates made by whom? That information wasn't sited in your post."
From the front page of The Homeless Action Network of Detroit http://www.handetroit.org/
Latest News
Click here to download "Moving Forward Together: A 10-Year Plan to End Homelessness in Detroit, Hamtramck, and Highland Park, Michigan"
pdf format
"Regardless, I'm not sure how how newspapers sales are going to help the transient homeless"
It's more of a self esteem thing
"Sorry but the numbers on this issue don't lie."
What number's?
"If a dollar or man hour spent of the "helps one person" program could be used in a more effective way to help many, than that dollar or man hour was wasted."
Agreed, informed suggestion's? |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4548
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 3:28 pm: | |
quote:Agreed, informed suggestion's?
I offered one already. If you are concerned about the homeless situation put your shoulder to the wheel of established organizations that offer long-term solutions to homelessness. I referenced the Mariners Inn as an example.
quote:What number's?
The success of these papers for moving people off the streets and into permanent housing. Earlier in this thread I pointed to surveys of the Washington DC homeless paper. After five years of existence 86% of the paper's sellers were unable to get off the street. Clearly this isn't an effective program.
quote:It's more of a self esteem thing
If boosting self-esteem is the issue, one could argue it would be more cost effective and simpler to recruit volunteers to walk around, give homeless people hugs, and them they are good people. |
None
Member
Username: None
Post Number: 34
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 3:42 pm: | |
Sstashmoo
I agree with you 100% with your post and your suggestion that
"A state funded housing/work program could be effective and a reality."
Is spot on and should be researched as an effective road to travel, there are many good housing programs available now and some really good one's from the past that just lost traction.
Does anybody remember the house for a buck program back in the day? It sounded like a win win situation to me, anyways.
Thank you for your thoughtful post Sstashmoo and have a good day |
Hockey_player
Member
Username: Hockey_player
Post Number: 352
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 3:46 pm: | |
"It's more of a self esteem thing "
Really?
Publishing a token newspaper will counteract the negative self-esteem of wearing infested clothing, shitting in public alleys, passing out behind dumpsters and losing one's mind while masking it with intoxicants, all while living on the fringe of society yet within it?
That's not absurdly simplistic at all, nor is it totally condescending. |
Sec106
Member
Username: Sec106
Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 4:39 pm: | |
I am absolutely bowled over at the level of discourse that has ensued from my asking if anyone else noticed more panhandlers around Comerica. The breadth of it is astounding, this is one hell of a discussion. I have been reading it with utter fascination. More proof of what an amazing, vibrant, feisty, intelligent city we live in. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 330
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 5:06 pm: | |
None,
And to expound, All elements of a plan like this exist. There are many needs in the industrial sector that a program like this could compliment. There are many companies that have services that are outsourced and would be interested. Packaging is one. Assembly/light assembly is another. Charge a reduced rate for services, the companies save money while helping to fund the program. And the services could be expanded as time went on and demand steered them. All the while teaching folks different skills and allowing them to once again earn a paycheck. And regain all important self-respect and esteem.
Also, there are many sources for work such as MFGquote. Where there is an abundance of low skilled entry type operations that would be well suited.
Initially this would need a jumpstart from the state, but if ran properly could even be self-sustaining. |
Bumble
Member
Username: Bumble
Post Number: 332
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 5:22 pm: | |
This new girl is awfully thin skinned. She's lucky I'm not playing Ann Coulter today.
I'm going to start passing out free beer to the homeless because I want to raise their self esteem.
If anyone would like to join me, I'll be at the BP at Grand River and Temple, 6 am, just as the Corridor's transient homeless population gets loaded into vans so they can deliver fliers to suburban doorsteps.
They already deliver papers for peanuts. What the need is booze. They can spend the money they save on a nothing-down, no-interest mortgage. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 209
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 5:57 pm: | |
"So it's much more harmonious to have them pester you to buy a newspaper than to buy a flag on a toothpick?"
Actually, some here support this whole thing through a misguided sense of altruism; I, for one, am not interested in reducing the number of people who are "pestered" by panhandling. I may be misguided or naive, but at least I care enough beyond trying to come up with witty one-liners that mean nothing. Did you read this whole debate including other original threads? Clearly not. Who's having the late in the game, knee-jerk reaction now?
Have you ever spent time in a city where Streetwise is sold? I lived in Chicago where it's sold extensively and was never accosted to buy a newspaper. In fact, Streetwise helps people cross back over into mainstream society, so begging kinda goes against the grain of the whole program.
I love all these ignorant generalizations; selling the paper is nothing like pushing a flag on a toothpick. It's also interesting to read visceral writing by real people, not writing guided by a corporate agenda.
Maybe all of you naysayers so offended by bums could come up with another way to rid society of its "undesirables". We could have bum gladiator type spectator sports, chain gangs to keep Susanarosa's alley spic 'n span, bum go kart races on Belle Isle now that we have a beautiful new paddock...the creative, exploitative possibilities are endless, oh, and we can further dehumanize them in the process. |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4549
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 6:26 pm: | |
quote:It's also interesting to read visceral writing by real people, not writing guided by a corporate agenda.
You aren't interested in helping homeless people receive the mental health care they need either. Programs like homeless newspapers treat minor symptoms of a much larger disease.
Your intentions may be good, I don't question that, but I've never seen anything to convince me these newspaper programs are an effective or efficient program to deal with homelessness.
All I'm saying, all Susanarosa is saying, all the other "nay-sayers" are saying is that there are very good and very effective programs helping the homeless in the city. The homeless would be better served if you (as someone who has expressed concern about homelessness) put your shoulder to the wheel of those efforts.
Oakmangirl you've raised an idea for discussion and it is being discussed in civil and constructive manner. I'm sorry some of us don't share your feelings on this subject. Sometimes people of good will disagree.
Susanarosa has never refereed to the homeless as "undesirables" or placed them in any unnecessarily negative context. Your accusation that she wishes to rid the world of homeless people or exploit them is McCarthyistic at best. It's a straw man argument and dishonest. |
Susanarosa
Member
Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1636
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 6:30 pm: | |
quote:chain gangs to keep Susanarosa's alley spic 'n span
Not my alley, Jelk's. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 210
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 6:34 pm: | |
To palliate those concerned with being pestered by newspaper street vendors:
"They are required to sign a 10-point code of conduct, developed and enforced by the StreetWise Quality Assurance Team, a group of former vendors. The code forbids harassment of customers and other vendors, supplying unauthorized vendors with papers and selling while under the influence of drugs or alcohol." Source: Chicagoreporter.com
Let the negative feeding frenzy begin! Who'll take first stab at picking this apart? I'm guessing Detroitrulez.... |
Susanarosa
Member
Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1637
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 6:39 pm: | |
Interesting.
How is that enforced? |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4550
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 6:40 pm: | |
I don't mind Susanarosa. If the roles were reversed and I had to sit through some two-bit evangelical trying to save my soul so I could get some prison grade spaghetti, I would hope someone would let me use their ally to eliminate. Technically it isn't my ally anyway. I just rent.
Seriously I don't blame homeless people for using allies as toilets. It's the idiots who think they are saving their own souls by feeding homeless people in public parks that bother me. Personally I think Jesus would invite the homeless back to his house in Farmington or Southfield for a decent sit-down meal instead of passing out peanut butter sandwiches but that's just me. I'm Catholic so I don't totally understand the ways of the evangelicals. When we feed the homeless, we do it in regular buildings with bathrooms and tables and chairs. http://www.cskdetroit.org/
(Message edited by Jelk on August 29, 2007) |
Susanarosa
Member
Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1638
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 6:42 pm: | |
Well, at least now they'll have something to wipe with. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 211
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:17 pm: | |
"Your accusation that she wishes to rid the world of homeless people or exploit them is McCarthyistic at best. It's a straw man argument and dishonest."
I never accused her of wanting to rid the world of homeless people, but her pejorative use of "pestering" is right up there with everyone else's negative portrayal. Please, point out for me where she made a positive alternative suggestion, I must have missed that one. My aren't you chivalrous; it's touching.
I would say the topic is being discussed (in some cases) in a very flippant, dismissive manner.
Evangelical, McCarthy, Farmington...how hilarious. Once again, let me s-p-e-l-l it out: no one stated this was a done deal; even I, the zealot, have serious reservations; we are merely researching this; the plan was to partner with other services; we are aware of mental health issues of homeless people, and so on. What pisses me off, is not the difference of opinion, but the lack of respect shown by failing to read all the related threads and the know it all, you will fail, negative attitude leveled at those of us who decided to look into helping others help themselves. I, nor anyone else ever said this would come close to eradicating homelessness and its evil-twin panhandling.
Carry on with the enlightening wise-ass comments. |
Rjk
Member
Username: Rjk
Post Number: 821
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:44 pm: | |
"I'm disappointed only 4 people have signed on when a lot more were out here complaining."
Maybe it's because a lot of people don't think it's a very good idea. Count me among them.
You call people out, then when people post reasons why they don't think it's a good idea you get all huffy.
There are a lot of people who donate time, money and other resources to existing organizations without the need to tell people about their charity work. Many people are perfectly happy being foot soldiers in established organizations and don't feel the need to be a general. |
Dds
Member
Username: Dds
Post Number: 324
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:48 pm: | |
quote:14% is a lot of people helped though. No one is expecting 100%, no matter what is done.
I wish I could stay employed with a 14% success rate.
quote:Evangelical, McCarthy, Farmington...how hilarious.
Actually, it's quite hilarious, if you know exactly to what is being referred, but if I, or they explained more, the post would probably be deleted. |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:56 pm: | |
"I wish I could stay employed with a 14% success rate."
Who cares if you can stay employed with a 14% success rate when this is VOLUNTARY! |
Dds
Member
Username: Dds
Post Number: 325
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:05 pm: | |
quote:Who cares if you can stay employed with a 14% success rate when this is VOLUNTARY!
I really don't think the staff (the case worker, the administrative assistants etc.) at Streetwise volunteer their time. Most of the 501(c)3 organizations in Detroit even pay their administrators.
An 86% failure rate would get most organizations shut down.
If I'm volunteering my time and/or money, I want to see a bit more success stories. But, I guess that's just me.
(Message edited by dds on August 29, 2007) |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 212
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:14 pm: | |
Crumbled,
It's utterly a waste of time to argue with the "insider intelligentsia" of the forum. As outsiders, we best not try anything outside the weird, cliquish, oh so, "high school", norm. For some reason, they seem threatened by idealistic, maybe misguided, efforts to help others all under the guise of "helping". It's ironic.
Anyway, I'm more interested at this point in redirecting our energy into what we can do. So let's get more organized and focused! |
Susanarosa
Member
Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1639
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:31 pm: | |
quote:It's utterly a waste of time to argue with the "insider intelligentsia" of the forum. As outsiders, we best not try anything outside the weird, cliquish, oh so, "high school", norm. For some reason, they seem threatened by idealistic, maybe misguided, efforts to help others all under the guise of "helping". It's ironic.
Of everything that preceded this post that is what you chose to address?
Just because we disagree with you doesn't mean we're being cliquish. It just means we disagree with you. |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:44 pm: | |
"I really don't think the staff (the case worker, the administrative assistants etc.) at Streetwise volunteer their time. Most of the 501(c)3 organizations in Detroit even pay their administrators.
An 86% failure rate would get most organizations shut down.
If I'm volunteering my time and/or money, I want to see a bit more success stories. But, I guess that's just me."
A) an organization can last as long as it can sustain itself. If it only has a 14% success rate, so be it.
B) So what if they do pay their staff? It's not coming out of any of your money, time, or effort. If I choose to waste MY time helping a meager 14% of the population, how is that hurting you anymore than me spending that time, oh say, surfing the internet doing nothing, helping no one?
I'm anxiously awaiting the answer to that... |
Dds
Member
Username: Dds
Post Number: 326
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:49 pm: | |
How can I respond to logic like that? Enjoy wasting your time. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 213
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:11 pm: | |
"Of everything that preceded this post that is what you chose to address?"
Yes, because I've addressed everything else including long term solutions on one of the original threads that I don't think you or Jelk read. I respect that you all don't think this will work, and I have publicly expressed my reservations as well. However, it seems to be the same people who crash the gates with little to offer other than criticism and sarcasm...Jelk, you do offer some strong arguments, but we can't change the lack of mental health care situation; I even said this wouldn't eradicate homelessness, not even close. I am perfectly willing to express my concerns, however, to state reps.
Seriously, with all due respect, why would you guys choose to criticize this as condescending and disingenuous? Where was the criticism for those out here referring to homeless people as "filthy animals". Those criticizing us seem equally as misguided.
As for me being a "general"; that's outlandish. All I did was offer to collect e-mails and create a wiki in 15 minutes. |
Detroitrulez
Member
Username: Detroitrulez
Post Number: 378
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:15 pm: | |
oakmont Gal, I admire your spunk....unfortunately you sometimes come off like a 4th rate Sister Adelaide...and I am your Nathan Dee-Troit!!
I have lived in DC. NYC and Chicago....I have seen Streetwise and its persistent failures in real time. Nothing compares with the Streetwise vendor pitching his lengthy spiel on a NY subway....nothing. When you see the door slam open and shut, the entire car knows what's coming. But oh.....you think that's a positive thing.
sorry. disagree.
I dont know what street corner in Cicero you frequented, but in my world....that dog don't hunt. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 214
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:31 pm: | |
4th rate!?!?! Hey, anyone who puts me in Guys 'n Dolls as the love interest of a young Marlon Brando is "swell" in my book.
I've only seen Streetwise in Chicago, so you may be right...I never said it was positive to hear a spiel, but hell, street people can't do a damn thing straight according to forumers: they can't beg, shouldn't drink, can't sell a flag, or a newspaper, so even if they want to try a bit of self-sufficiency, they're still vilified; I just don't get it. Shelters are a temporary fix; short of a coup to see that social services are restored, what do YOU suggest? |
Crumbled_pavement
Member
Username: Crumbled_pavement
Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:55 pm: | |
"How can I respond to logic like that? Enjoy wasting your time."
I'm glad you see my point. I could waste my time debating you over the internet or I could help someone. If helping someone is wasted time, it's much better than wasting time debating an issue. It's always less productive to talk/discuss things than it is to be active.
(Message edited by Crumbled_pavement on August 29, 2007) |
Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100
Post Number: 1452
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 9:58 pm: | |
I don't mind the streetwise part, but I have to say that when someone comes into a subway car selling something, it is a bit of a pain in the ass. Thankfully, my experience with this was in Korea and I had no idea what they were saying. 
The only sure fire way to not get me thoroughly annoyed is when the people are playing some music on the street. There used to be a guy who would do poetry with some drums out in front of Comerica Park and he would always quip on people walking by. Everybody loved him, heck, he even picked on me a few times, much to the delight of my dad, and we all got a few laughs out of it. Chicago is nice since someone seems to be drumming on a bucket or playing a Sax everywhere. The same seems to be occurring here. There is that one family by Ford Field that sings during sporting events, and I have seen a few musicians here and there. That also adds a nice touch to the city. |
None
Member
Username: None
Post Number: 35
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 10:13 pm: | |
Susanarosa
"Well, at least now they'll have something to wipe with."
That is truly Funny, Thanks for the smile |
Susanarosa
Member
Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 1640
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 10:15 pm: | |
quote:I'm glad you see my point. I could waste my time debating you over the internet or I could help someone. If helping someone is wasted time, it's much better than wasting time debating an issue. It's always less productive to talk/discuss things than it is to be active.
Or you could utilize the already existing and proven support services serving Detroit's homeless. No further research required. You can start tomorrow. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 332
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 11:09 pm: | |
Quote: "Or you could utilize the already existing and proven support services serving Detroit's homeless"
Yeah, they're working so well.
I simply don't have the time, but if these folks want to start a grass roots program to help out, whats the big deal? Who cares what they do or how they do it? Some of these rants against are pretty pathetic. |
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