 
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 891
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:50 pm: |    |
Regarding the Cass football field, Coach Wilcher claims that the field meets national guidelines and that they want to play all their home games there this year. Previous problems allegedly stemmed from issues with the grass field. It had "dips and ditches." http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070907/SPO RTS09/709070401/1057
Huh? I'm not sure why it would take two years to fix an uneven field, but that's what he said. |
Islandman
Member
Username: Islandman
Post Number: 889
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 1:08 pm: | |
Mr. Cady, now that is a name I thought I would never hear again.  |
Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main
Post Number: 1278
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 1:18 pm: | |
Timmy,
What year did you come out of Cass. I had Laginess as well. He did more storytelling than anything. I am thinking that you may have went there at the same time as I did or before me. My counselor was "Cussin" Musson in 666 as well.
I spent 2 years with Cady because Laborious died in my senior year. Mr. Cady and I were called upon a few times to judge some competitions at the Voc Tech Centers. He was also the one that was called upon to create a model of the Paradise Valley area. It was our class that took the time to help him. I spent a lot of time with him after graduation until he died in 88.
I have to agree with you with Mr. Lag. He was the best design drafting teacher ever. He left in the middle of my junior year and never came back. I ran into his daughter a few years ago. |
Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 1:21 pm: | |
Islandman, what year did you attend Cass? |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:16 pm: | |
Danindc
You're "ham-handed" comment is exactly something that comes from someone who.... lacks intelligent dialect to counter valid points to an issue of great importance to Cass Tech Alumni. Plus, I don't eat pork....
OK so lets start doing the math. Since you have experience in asbestos removal, how much do you and your company charge, lets say, per square foot? I would say there are going to be six habitable floors in the building, so we are already talking about alot of square footage.
Remember, Floors are not contiguous in the building, so you will essentially have to bring in girders and fill in 6 floors in order to make the floors contiguous. That's no small feat. Now you're going to have to replace and redesign the windows in the building to accommodate living area. The elevators will have to be replaced, seeing that only a few of them were working when the school was closed. And finally, how many lofts do you plan on accommodating in the building, hmmmm, I'm guessing at least 350, along with the mixed use areas, such as retail space, exhibit space, maybe a grocery store and a cleaners since there is no shopping in the area... etc, etc, etc....
This is in the wake of the boom in lofts that are now going up or being converted in downtown Detroit as we speak, with, much better locations to activities downtown as well as better views.
Now I'm no project manager when it comes to buildings, I develop software and I know I've missed many things that would have to come into mind in order to make a true assessment. But now comes the real hard part. Financing this would be even harder than the Book Cadillac. Lets say you get a 30 year deal with 100 million, which is a conservative estimate. I don't think your income vs your outlay would match Danidc....
And, no one is talking about an empty space. The baseball, football and parking lot would replace the building. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3217
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:31 pm: | |
quote:You're "ham-handed" comment is exactly something that comes from someone who.... lacks intelligent dialect to counter valid points to an issue of great importance to Cass Tech Alumni. Plus, I don't eat pork....
Actually, I'm an engineer who works on quite a few renovation projects.
You're writing off a potential project, based on limited observation and speculation, before it's even been studied by an architect. I do appreciate your input, because you do seem rather well-informed. I don't understand the defeatist attitude, though. You're not even giving your city a chance. |
Yooper
Member
Username: Yooper
Post Number: 74
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:41 pm: | |
|
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:44 pm: | |
quote:...
Now I'm no project manager when it comes to buildings, I develop software and I know I've missed many things that would have to come into mind in order to make a true assessment. But now comes the real hard part. Financing this would be even harder than the Book Cadillac. Lets say you get a 30 year deal with 100 million, which is a conservative estimate. I don't think your income vs your outlay would match Danidc....
I don't pretend to be an architectural engineer, once again.... I'm a software developer. Now since you are the more qualified of the two of use to make a "loose" assessment of what it would take, what is your gestimate on what it would initially cost?
I give you a little credit, your continued name calling of me is getting me to respond just a bit below my moral high ground. "Defeatist", now that's a new word that someone has attempted to use to describe me for which is light-years of defining me.
So what has been your largest renovation project that comes anywhere near doing something the size of old Cass Tech?
And... since when did Detroit become "my" city. This is a regional issues that needs to be addressed by everyone....
(Message edited by TimmyM on September 07, 2007)
(Message edited by TimmyM on September 07, 2007) |
Islandman
Member
Username: Islandman
Post Number: 890
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:44 pm: | |
B_m: 84-88 |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 1404
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:50 pm: | |
Gistock,
What I meant by 'whoops' was it seemed like a good idea at the time. If I had my druthers I would have left the football field where it was and put the high school where the current football field is. It would have tightened up Grand River's street curtain and looked great when walking or driving down GR.
I never said that keeping the building was a bad idea, but those that made the final decision should have done so with more forethought and with some idea of how to make the numbers ($$$)work. Lack of movement tells me that this never happened. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5292
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:04 pm: | |
Timmym go back and reread our posts... neither Dan nor myself said anything about letting the building ROT. You said that, not either of us. Granted securing a building from scrappers is a challenge in a depressed city. But mothballing is EXACTLY what I think is best right now.
Just look at the Book-Cadillac and Fort-Shelby Hotel projects. They sat empty (and scavenged) for 30 years and now they will become polished gems of Detroit once again. Most forumers are dying to visit the refurbished Westin Book Cadillac once it's reborn.
No one is suggesting that Cass should be allowed to go scavenged for 30 years. Just keep it shuttered for a while, and see what the Cass Park area of Midtown develops into.
It's no secret that Ilitch Holdings has been buying up Midtown real estate right and left. The proximity to MotorCity Casino, Masonic and the Fox (as well as a nearby new arena) could give added incentive to redevelop old Cass Tech say 2-5 years down the line.
Maybe the market isn't there right now, but it seems short sighted to rip it down just for parking space and ball fields. Hell there's a ton of empty space around the new Cass Tech that could fit the bill... why does it have to be the old Cass Tech that has to go? That was the mentality that Mike Ilitch used to want to tear down the historic Women's Exchange Building (today's Chelios' Chili)... he wanted a decorative sidewalk next to his new ballpark.
And Cass Tech was arguably Albert Kahn's best school design (he is after all Detroit's premier architect). Does that not count for anything?
To prematurely knock down old Cass Tech right now is short sighted at best. I bet that if someone took a poll of old Cass Tech alumni, the "knock it down now" approach would be in the minority. |
Broken_main
Member
Username: Broken_main
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:21 pm: | |
Island...you were there with my cousin. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3219
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:42 pm: | |
Timmy, I honestly don't know what it would cost to renovate the building. For one, I don't price these projects--I just make sure the building stands up. You would need to perform a detailed assessment of the structural, HVAC, and electrical systems. The cost would also depend on the architectural scope.
I only called your attitude "defeatist" in that, with little hard information, you have already concluded that a renovation would be impossible. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy, my friend, but so is the converse.
quote:So what has been your largest renovation project that comes anywhere near doing something the size of old Cass Tech?
Perhaps you've heard of the National Museum of American History, or the Virginia State Capitol? |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 3:54 pm: | |
Gistok....
Well, well, the preservationists are starting to see the light on building maintenance and mothballing a building in light of it's demise of its previous use. I know you didn't say anything about letting a building rot, but, if you look around downtown as well as the two projects you mentioned, that's exactly what happened to them. It almost becomes an inevitable thing to vacant building downtown, and the trouble is, no one seems to see anyone doing all of this stuff.
I am the one who suggested the proper mothballing of buildings until you find proper use of them. You were just complaining about the building being torn down without looking at a realistic way of preserving the building until a use can be found for it.
And once again, as I said before, the Book-Candillac and Fort-Shelby Hotel projects are driven by ECONOMICS, not preservation. It has become ECONOMICALLY feasible to turn around these hugh monoliths into viable living space once again.
And ohhhhh my, there you go, pulling Albert Khan out of your butt. It's like the old boxer argument, you have to pull Rocky Marciano out of your butt... ( that a joke from Coming to American) if you guys are into any humor in all of this...
You can hammer ILitch if you'd like but he made the bold move of coming downtown and fixing up the Fox Theatre, which is now, the most profitable theatre of its type in the United States....Again, driven by ECONOMICS...
Well OK I'm willing to see if an assessment can be done, which we would probably not agree upon either as to how it could be used, and... What would be the true cost without huge overruns.... In the meantime, the building has to be mothballed properly, and secured, otherwise it will become a hazard to the area as well as to the students who attend the New Cass Tech.....
By the way, the Woman's Exchange building is a wonderful structure and I am glad an ECONOMIC solution was found for it in order for it to survive..... |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:01 pm: | |
Danindc
I go to Washington yearly and visit the museums on the mall each time I go. The National Museum of American History is a great museum, but, I don't recall it being renovated from top to bottom, which the old Cass Tech will need. Impressive but, I did ask you for an informed guestimate.....
So you're in no more of a position to speak on preserving it from an economic standpoint as I am in tearing it down then... hmmmmmmm |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3221
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:09 pm: | |
quote:So you're in no more of a position to speak on preserving it from an economic standpoint as I am in tearing it down then...
Correct. That's why one would need to conduct an assessment, determine the scope of work, and then price the project.
It would also be dependent upon the architectural programming of the space. For example, if the first floor were made into a supermarket, the project might be more feasible than if the first floor were made into residential space.
Of course, a lot depends on property values, and how much rent could be charged--the higher the rents, the more feasible the project is. One way to guarantee lower property values is to tear more buildings down for empty lots.
The NMAH is most assuredly being renovated top-to-bottom. The building has been closed for over a year, and will be closed for about another year. New (and relocated) elevators, new security systems, new HVAC, a skylight with a full-height lightwell, a grand staircase, and a brand new exhibit for the original Star Spangled Banner (which is the driving force for the entire project).
http://americanhistory.si.edu/ about/renovations.cfm |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 9
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:24 pm: | |
Your quote Danindc...
One way to guarantee lower property values is to tear more buildings down for empty lots.
Again it wouldn't be an empty lot. And I don't think you can compare the restoration/renovation of a national treasure to what needs to be planned for Cass Tech... It has infinite funding by our government.... |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 10
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:27 pm: | |
Cass Tech 75-79...'79 grad by the way.... |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3222
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:31 pm: | |
quote:It has infinite funding by our government....
Au contraire! We had to completely redesign the project, because the first go-round came in something like $20 million over budget (or about 30% over). A lot of the funding for NMAH is being privately raised--the SSB exhibit is funded by a $12 million donation from Polo Ralph Lauren. Even government (and quasi-government) projects have limited budgets.
I think the old Cass Tech would make a fantastic condo building, with a supermarket and other convenience retail on the ground floor. |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 11
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:33 pm: | |
Well ok you got me on that one. But, 20 million over what original budget?????? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3223
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:35 pm: | |
^The original project budget of about $65 million. |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:39 pm: | |
Well that means 100 million for Old Cass Tech. that includes over charges..... |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3224
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:45 pm: | |
^Depends on how much work needs to be done! |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 4:53 pm: | |
By the way, that's one sweet project - NMHA.... It should look great when it's finished! |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:23 pm: | |
You all have until October 29th, 2007 to submit your proposals for the old Cass Tech. Better start working hard if you haven't started yet:
http://casstechhistoric.org/do cs/RFPcasstech.pdf |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1617
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:24 pm: | |
http://casstechhistoric.org/do cs/CTDAPSPRESSRELEASE.pdf |
Trstar
Member
Username: Trstar
Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:51 pm: | |
CT Grad 78 here.
The old building has got to go! Its a has a lot of wasted space and is not architecturally significant. A REAL High School sport area should be created there - Track, football, soccer, and tennis courts. |
Drm
Member
Username: Drm
Post Number: 1135
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:53 pm: | |
Supersport Street Prophet 313 tells me that there is a game being played on the Cass Tech football field right now. Cass Tech is currently losing 26-0. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1618
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 5:59 pm: | |
Existing Conditions Report: http://www.bureauliving.com/fi les/CT_Report.pdf (very large file at 38MB) |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4111
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 8:58 pm: | |
Couldn't the use the field for Arena Football? Smaller team size would save on the budget too. |
The_rock
Member
Username: The_rock
Post Number: 1950
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 9:55 pm: | |
There is a rumor floating around that jjaba has landed in Detroit with a tape measure and wire cutters and is going to take the necessary steps to correct the situation. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 50
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:50 am: | |
According to the Bureauliving.com report the building is sound, and when I searched the document I found no mention of asbestos.
They report that all the elevators work.
The report does mention that the pool in the Kahn addition was built as a 50 yard pool, NOT 50 meters. jeeze. What an embarrassment. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1632
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
Yeah there has never been mention of asbestos in the building... |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 7:48 pm: | |
If the report didn't mention asbestos, then the report is lacking. The building is heated by boiler, which it piped throughout the building. Asbestos is clearly covering many pipes from the basement to the 7th floor. And that's just on the pipes. Asbestos is also in parts of the walls as well. In addition, all elevator shafts or elevators are not in working condition.... |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 51
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:03 pm: | |
Timm:
According ot the Report, there is no boiler in the building. The Report states that the building gets it heat from the city's steam system.
The Report is in PDF format, and it is a little difficult to read, but interesting. The Report is far from being a detailed exploration of the building, it is a pretty comprehensive overview of the place. |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 15
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 5:05 pm: | |
I stand corrected, you're right. But, those pipes that are coming from the City's steam system have asbestos on them... I've seen it for myself. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1649
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 5:21 pm: | |
Also, asbestos is ok as long as it sits in a condition where it can't be disturbed. |
Stingbeelee
Member
Username: Stingbeelee
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 11:31 am: | |
I had to come on here, seeing that Timmym is Cass Tech grad of '78; probably played football under Mr. Lewis and Mr. Graschuck, during Cass's glory days in sports. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 12:11 pm: | |
Yeah there has never been mention of asbestos in the building...
When I was a student at CT there was a rumor among the teachers and students that the old building was filled with asbestos. |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 16
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:05 pm: | |
LOL... Close StingBeeLee... it was '79... Yep Lewis was also my little league coach... I also got 1 year under Dick Cole... the legend...ha, ha...When did you come out... Sting? lol.. |
Stingbeelee
Member
Username: Stingbeelee
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 2:43 pm: | |
Timmym, I haven't seen you in quite a while; I was the guy who told everyone what to do on the field; yes I was under the great one, Dick Cole (who is doing fine by the way); and I came back to help Gras get the team together for the upcoming years that he was there. |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 17
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 10:25 pm: | |
Oh my... Is that you Mike?? |
Stingbeelee
Member
Username: Stingbeelee
Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 12:34 pm: | |
Ha, ha, ha. No, I'm not Mike. I graduated in '77, started out with the football and track team in '75. A lot of times, it was only me and Cole out on the practice field with the players, Graschuck would come later on in the day. I came back to help Graschuck during the summers (I was in college then) and prepare the team for the upcoming year. I also treated the players when they got hurt on the field. In the end of my time at Cass, I was the manager of the football, basketball, track, baseball, swimming, tennis, golf teams. When I was on the field with Cole, he was somewhat less animated since I took care of a lot of things, including getting the team members out of trouble at Cass. Oh yeah, I was short, with curly hair, very good looking (well, to the cheerleaders, I was "cute"). The last section of my name that I use here should tell you the rest. |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 20
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 4:08 pm: | |
Yes my brother I know exactly who you are! How's it going dear friend!? |
Stingbeelee
Member
Username: Stingbeelee
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 4:18 pm: | |
It's going good. Still in sports, coaching at Crowell Recreation Center, Lahser near 6 mile (they closed Tindal, where I was for many years).
I am raising five of my basketball players who come from broken homes for various reasons. Probably will catch up with the great one (as my family calls Cole) to see some football games.
Are you still working with computer processes? |
Timmym
Member
Username: Timmym
Post Number: 21
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 4:35 pm: | |
Stingbeelee, contact me at welder77850@mypacks.net THanks! Yep I'm still doing the information systems thing... |
Flybydon
Member
Username: Flybydon
Post Number: 173
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 9:55 pm: | |
9/29/2007
|
Ffdfd
Member
Username: Ffdfd
Post Number: 207
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 9:56 pm: | |
^^^^ Why do I have the urge to break out my old electronic football game? |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1771
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 4:01 pm: | |
Too bad that google earth doesn't have the new cass tech on it yet. I have found their measure tool to be pretty damn accurate. Not sure if it is accurate down to the degree of 100 yards, errr 97 yards as it were. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 5554
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 4:08 pm: | |
jjaba, Printing, Cass Tech. Class of 1959.
jjaba, Westside Printer on the Grand River electric bus heading West. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2388
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 7:59 pm: | |
If you look at the end of the endzones in the picture, there is room to expand the area behind each one. That's only a matter of moving back the fences and removing the inner sidewalks, which would also add the three yards that are missing. Not a cheap endeavor but manageable.
The issue of there not being enough room behind the benches will cost a lot more, but it is as simple as moving back the home bleachers. As you can see, there is a road behind the home bleaches that is about three lanes wide. Shortening that road down to two lanes and moving the home bleachers back will give that added room needed for a safety zone behind the Cass Tech bench. The field would have to be shifted as well. That too will make more room behind the visitor's bench. Problem solved. |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 129
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 8:39 pm: | |
Nice to see a mention of Coach Cole, he was a tough & fair guy; I remember him from my one semester at CT (1972). Another great Cass Tech Coach was George Gembis; one helluva collegiate football player & excellent swimming coach at CT. |
Flybydon
Member
Username: Flybydon
Post Number: 178
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 8:57 pm: | |
Southeastern High School
Check out what was done to improve this playing field.
|
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