 
Terryh
Member
Username: Terryh
Post Number: 482
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 11:56 am: |    |
Where is Oakwood Heights Danny? Many whites don't feel welcome in the city and you can't blame them. There is blatant hostility, tacit and overt,in many parts of the city. I love the city for the unique architecture; the fabulous ruins; history; the potential for a comeback etc. Would I want to raise a family and send my children to a DPS? Probably not. I experienced an urban school setting in Flint. It was the wild west and next to impossible to concentrate on learning.
I have often considered renting an affordable apartment with character, several buildings Ive looked at have elevators from back in the day; original artwork from the 1920's painted on the walls; concrete walls and ceilings; wooden railings etc . Ive noticed some nice affordable above store front apartments: trouble is I cant shake that concious-subconcious feeling that because of my whiteness I will never be fully welcome. What if my door gets kicked in and my beloved collectibles are stolen? It can happen anywhere but where are the odds stacked against me? Are poor inner city blacks going to resent whites gentrifying neighborhoods and opening businesses? Are they going to be envious of the new wealth coming to the city while they remain poor? What if there is another rebellion?
If I lived anywhere it would be around Oakland Avenue or the Springwells neighborhood which seems to be a very vibrant-diverse community on the comeback trail.Personally, I would feel more welcome and comfortable in the hispanic district.92,000 seems like an awfully high figure for the white population. I wouldnt have guessed the number was that high. |
Gotdetroit
Member
Username: Gotdetroit
Post Number: 97
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:13 pm: | |
I live in Detroit. I'm white. Big deal. I have two kids (who live with their mother outside of Detroit), but the kids stay with me every other weekend and for one month during the summer. They love it here. They enjoy everything about it. And honestly, they will probably be better off for the experience - in many different ways...one being (hopefully) not growing up to immediately distrust people who look/act/think differently from themselves.
On the whole black/white thing: I live in a building that is probably close to 50% black, 50% white (a round guess). I can't remember a single instance where I received a look from someone who was black that would suggest to me that I, for the simple matter of my skin color, was unwelcome. Quite the opposite, everyone happens to seem pretty damn friendly. Or maybe I'm not looking hard enough.
My two cents. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1552
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
I find it interesting that white people seem to move into Harlem with no problem, where their presence is probably a little less welcomed than in Detroit, but so many feel they are unwanted in Detroit. Though either case is not nearly what I would call unwelcome- I still think that a black family moving into Livonia or Novi is more likely to be reminded of themselves than a white family in Detroit or Harlem.
I'm not trying to imply anything, it's just my observation. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 330
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 12:53 pm: | |
Eric nails it re: a regular white guy/family trying to live in a non-gentrified area of Detroit.
Downtown and in the fabulous areas often mentioned in these threads are not the experience of someone who works for a living and owns a 1000 sq. foot bungalow on a street built in 1955. Grandmont, Rosedale and the other "park" areas kind of resemble college where there is politeness and mutual respect, even when viewpoints differ (unlike DY, btw). Neighborhoods, however, too quickly devolve into the closing of ranks and rapid tribalism described above. Sadly, "get whitey" is shouted in the areas not visited by many who comment here. Something that Eric did not say but that I've often heard among people like me (again - non-affluent white with tenure in non-showcase Detroit neighborhoods)is: one-on-one, blacks are fine people -they'll be your friend and lend a hand- but when the balance swings too far you'll discover that you're "white" and you'll have enemies that you didn't know that you'd made."
What's it like for a black person in a mostly white area? Depends upon the area, I guess. |
Ferntruth
Member
Username: Ferntruth
Post Number: 127
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 1:01 pm: | |
"Grandmont, Rosedale and the other "park" areas kind of resemble college where there is politeness and mutual respect, even when viewpoints differ (unlike DY, btw)"
Oh cry me a river! You, Karl, and CcBatson (to mention a few) seem to have no problem getting your little insults and digs in, and suddenly you need a tissue because you don't feel loved?
If you need an example, please refer to the thread where Karl accused another DY'er of "strapping bombs to her grandchildren"...yeah, there's a great example of "politeness and mutual respect, even when viewpoints differ"....
You get what you give. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9954
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 1:03 pm: | |
Fern - Different Craig. The Craig you are thinking about is CraigD. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 332
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 1:07 pm: | |
Fern, I don't pitch insults directed at any person or group. I'm here to argue (politely) and swap ideas. Find a post of mine where I trade in insults and I'll apologize and then suspend myself for a day.
Your blurted response confirms my observation. Why not talk about my ideas. Y'know - post a few of your own in response or give me a punch on the arm for being right on. Something. Anything. Anything but ideological rants. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9955
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 1:11 pm: | |
Craig - Just to clrify my post above there is a poster CraigD on the non-Detroit board that is prone to insults (as are most on that board, myself included).
I suspect that he mixed you up with them since he mentioned Karl and CC as well. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5271
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 1:17 pm: | |
Well I think the city should look to its leaders and follow their lead.... er um, no wait that's not right is it... Mayor Kilpatrick sends his kids to a private academy...
I guess the best advice, is that each individual should make their own choices as to where they feel their kids can get the best education. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 334
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 1:51 pm: | |
JT - thanks, senor(a?). |
Margaret
Member
Username: Margaret
Post Number: 101
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 2:01 pm: | |
growing up in the far east side of Detroit, we went to 12 years of Catholic school...I remember as a kid, wishing I was black because (this was during the 50s and 60s) it seemed to me that the black people were "having more fun" in their neighborhoods. not living in fear. they were often sitting outside on their front porches, dancing in the streets sometimes. of course that was a simplistic kid's view: I'm sure they lived with plenty of fear and a whole lot more, looking back now. but they didn't seem so uptight, insular, zipped up, as we were in our neighborhood - what they are now calling "Fox Creek." just a little tidbit for you all... |
Detroit313
Member
Username: Detroit313
Post Number: 473
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 2:34 pm: | |
I live in New York City and I was talking to a cab driver one day and be said the same thing. He would never put his kids in a NYC public school. He sent his kids to a school out in Long Island. Although New York is the biggest system in the country, it still has its problems.
Ironicly, when Archer was in office, the Detroit school system actually increased in attendance!
<313> |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1554
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 2:40 pm: | |
^New York's schools are actually on par with Detroit's. I saw a ranking in the past couple year's that had NYC public schools ranked lower than Detroit's. |
Granmontrules
Member
Username: Granmontrules
Post Number: 157
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 5:01 pm: | |
Detroit313 - The mayor has nothing to do with DPS. At least one of mayor kilpatrick's sons goes to DPS - he attends with my niece. |
Jenniferl
Member
Username: Jenniferl
Post Number: 396
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 5:40 pm: | |
Granmontrules,
Is it the youngest Kilpatrick son who attends public school? I remember reading in this forum a few years ago that the twins attended the Friends School, which is private.
A question for parents who don't send their teens to DPS-- now that the Catholic high schools in the city have closed down, which private schools do your kids go to? Do they go to school in the 'burbs or are there private high schools in the city that I am not aware of? |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 335
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 5:57 pm: | |
How does one go about volunteering with DPS? At a particular school? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6470
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 6:06 pm: | |
Terryh,
Oakwood Heights sub-division is located from Fort St. to Oakwood Blvd. In which I called Detroit's white bottom. Full line of wood frame and brick colonials, ranches, and victorian bungalows. Its mostly a hillbilly community with a few Hispanics and blacks. Those folks are not giving up those homes to anyone yet. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 120
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 7:01 pm: | |
I would disagree with the characterization of NYC schools. There are bad schools, but there are also quite a few excellent schools. Top NYC schools are among the best in the nation. Stuyvesant High in Manhattan is consistently the #1 feeder school to Harvard. Bronx Science, Hunter, Townsend Harris, Brooklyn Tech and a few others are also among the nation's best. These top schools are very competitive, with acceptance rates below 5% and most kids attending elite universities.
If I have children and stay in my Brooklyn neighborhood, I will definitely send them to my neighborhood school. Following elementary school all interested students apply to competitive citywide schools. There are many elite schools and high achieving students will be accepted to at least one.
The "bad" schools in NYC are usually the local schools in poor neighborhoods (which require no admissions application). They are "dumping grounds" for all the kids who didn't apply to the competitive programs. Thankfully, these regular high schools are all being shut down and reorganized into multiple smaller schools.
I'm sure Detroit has some good schools, but I don't think it's quite the same. How many neighborhood elementary schools have high test scores and diverse student bodies?
If I were to move back to metro Detroit, I would consider living within the city limits. If I were to have kids within city limits, I would probably send them to Friends if I had the $$$. I would definitely consider public schools, but (assuming conditions stay the same) I doubt I would end up sending them to DPS. |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 610
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 7:15 pm: | |
Kwame's kids used to go to Friends...not anymore. |
Ericdetfan
Member
Username: Ericdetfan
Post Number: 162
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 9:22 pm: | |
I loved Warrendale when I lived there and still do. The main reason why we moved was because of crime, mainly the increase of crime the last 5 years or so that we lived there. I attended a private high school and my sister was in a charter school, both outside the city.
We just felt very victimized and my mother no longer felt safe. Our cars were vandalized on 4 separate occasions over a 6 month period. One time someone came into the house (while I was home at 7:30 in the evening) and stole my stereo (and no, I did not play it loud so that whole neighborhood could hear). A month before we moved our garage was broken into and over 3000 dollars in automotive tools were stolen. All these incidents were called into the DPS to which units never came. These are not the only incidents, but I do not wish to discourage anyone further. Sometimes that attitude are here seems like in a traitor to Detroit because I moved out. That could not be farther from the truth. I still feel a great passion and pride to say that I am from Detroit.
I applaud those of you that are still there are raising families no less! Idk how you do it, you must have really good luck or incredible favor with God, whichever you believe. |
Granmontrules
Member
Username: Granmontrules
Post Number: 158
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 9:59 pm: | |
Ericdetfan - Two things. I live fairly close to Warrendale and have friends there. They don't experience crime of the sort that your family does, however, if they did have crime issues they would call DPD not DPS - no wonder no one came when you were calling the school system! |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 86
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 10:07 pm: | |
bussing |
Ericdetfan
Member
Username: Ericdetfan
Post Number: 165
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 10:32 pm: | |
Well, I don't claim to understand the patterns of criminals (or lack thereof) of why the mess with one family a lot and not another...
lol oops....yeah my bad...I guess we have just been talking about the schools so much that it was on my mind when I posted that. |
Lombaowski
Member
Username: Lombaowski
Post Number: 45
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:02 am: | |
[quote]I find it interesting that white people seem to move into Harlem with no problem, where their presence is probably a little less welcomed than in Detroit, but so many feel they are unwanted in Detroit.[quote]
I think what it boils down to is not feeling "unwanted" its feeling as though when push comes to shove they'll get shoved. One of the problems in living in some neighborhoods is that someone will come into your house in mid daylight and steal anything they can carry and no one saw anything. Those neighbors who are friendly, who keep their yards, who always greet you didn't see anything or if they did they didn't call the cops. It's an epidemic in the black community.
I grew up in Franklin Park in the 70s and 80s and we had a lot of black neighbors and friends. They were great, great until one family had a cousin from Arkansas come to stay and he and some local hoods robbed the old lady who lived across the street. Then no one saw anything, no one in that family could have possibly perpetrated such a crime and the other black neighbors did nothing. This goes on in other communities I've lived in also (Southern Italy) where despite the most glaring proof of guilt a family and race will completely deny any wrong doing. No one wants to live in neighborhoods like that and I think for many taking the chance you'll move in and get worked over is a real issue. Whites left Detroit for the wrong reasons but they will not return unless they have a right reason.
Moving into an all black or mostly black neighborhood where property theft is a slight problem means you’re going to get robbed. It’s not really about race, racism, or anything else up till the point where you have desperate people wanting to take all your valuables who are black and your neighbors then not wanting to get involved because of history, culture or whatever else. Real or perceived this is an issue and maybe most whites would not admit to this fear because of the possibility of being called a racist or even a coward.
I’ve never been bothered in Detroit because of the color of my skin when I lived there, or when I return and I spend a lot of time in neighborhoods just walking around because I truly love the old neighborhoods and getting to know areas I’m not familiar with. I like to just walk around and think about all the history and stories the neighborhood holds. In Brightmoor, in Forest Park, in Poletown, in Petosky-Ortego, in Boynton, doesn’t matter. I don’t fear for my safety in Detroit and I never have. However I do fear that everything I’ve earned in life will be gone if I moved to the Eye, to Morningside, or to Chandler Park. Am I racist for thinking this? No I don’t think so. I’ve never treated anyone any different on a personal level for their race, color, or creed but I’m also not ignorant or naïve enough to discount the fact that people of the same molds stick together. I’m half Italian and half Polish and I embrace those cultures and ethnicities more than I embrace others out of nature. So what would happen if you reverse the scenario and an Italian broke into the house of the lone black family on my street? Me? I’m righteous so I’d do something about it but many of my Italian brothers would not. That’s life. That’s how the world works and probably always will until we are so evolved or mixed that ethnocentrism no longer exists. Could take 2000 more years. |
Ferntruth
Member
Username: Ferntruth
Post Number: 128
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:08 am: | |
quotes:
"Fern - Different Craig. The Craig you are thinking about is CraigD."
"Fern, I don't pitch insults directed at any person or group. I'm here to argue (politely) and swap ideas. Find a post of mine where I trade in insults and I'll apologize and then suspend myself for a day. "
I stand corrected and I apologize to you Craig for confusing you with another person. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1557
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:11 am: | |
>Crawford
Renaissance and Cass Tech are historical feeder schools into U-M. There are also quite a few graduates of Cass Tech, Renaissance and MLK HS that go to Ivy League schools. I have several friends who graduated with me from Cass Tech that are now in graduate programs at Ivy League schools.
So I think NYC and Detroit schools are a fair comparison. |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 341
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:23 am: | |
Fern - thank you for that. I'm not pure, but I'll make my own enemies (how in the hell do I insert a smiley emoticon here?).
Lombaowski - didn't fear for your life in Brightmoor? When and where did you walk through? Only half-joking I say that if you passed through and were not molested it was because the drug traders look after their customers. Brightmoor was my home and even I would not want to take more than a few steps through there. Anyone wanting a thrill should walk any of the blocks from Grand River to Schoolcraft and then report back. |
Lombaowski
Member
Username: Lombaowski
Post Number: 47
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:41 am: | |
Craig>I was in Brightmoor about a month ago. My great Uncle once lived on Dacosta near Midland and I went to see the old house which was abandoned. I then went in to see if I found anything interesting and to ask a guy across the street if he had known any of my family which he didn't.
I worked for a TV station covering murders and the like for a few years in Flint, Saginaw, and in Detroit and I got shot at a lot in Afghanistan as a combat reporter so I think I've developed some sort of relationship with danger or perceived danger. Some of the most interesting neighborhoods in Detroit (poletown, Forest Park, Dexter, and the areas around city airport) are in what are now extremely poor neighborhoods.
Lots of history in Brightmoor a real working mans neighborhood back in the day and one of the few sections of the city that was haphazardly constructed with no thoughts of lasting more than twenty years or more.
I only get to spend a few days in Detroit each year and I usually take two or three days to drive around and take notes and talk to people. I think a lot of them think I'm either nuts or a cop.
(Message edited by lombaowski on September 06, 2007) |
Craig
Member
Username: Craig
Post Number: 344
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 10:51 am: | |
L - well, you were in the crappy side of Brightmoor.
Obviously I'm tossing out hyperbole when I predict "death" - there are times where the old 'hood is peaceful, if only for a few hours or days.
Crazy or cop was probably right. White natives in that area have a certain look, as do the drug buyers. I'm laughing here, but you probably did come across as a narc or plain clothesman - big Polish face and flood jeans, maybe? (could also be me!). |
Frumoasa
Member
Username: Frumoasa
Post Number: 46
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 12:45 pm: | |
The one thing I must say is that I as a Romanian woman living in the city, outside of the Romanian neighborhood no less, I feel comfortable in my home and in my neighborhood. My neighborhood is small and is not a showplace, it is more an overflow from the city of Hamtramck, but I have neighbors from all over the world and we all seem to get along pretty well. We have a good relationship with the business owner next door to us and the Ukrainian family across the street. The only thing I feel is that Hamtramck Academy (a charter school) provides more resources and discipline than the local elementary school (Davison)and I have visited both and with a degree in elementary education and a teaching certificate, I can say that the charter school is a superior institution. That is not to say I am anti DPS, as a matter of fact, I did student teaching at Coolidge Elementary and loved it, but when I have two choices within equal distance, I will choose the one I feel is a better program. Hamtramck Academy offers ESL tutors if deemed necessary, whereas the support staff at Davison doesn't cater to the international community it serves by providing paraprofessionals that are fluent in Arabic, Polish or Bengali with any regularity. That is in contrast to another DPS school, Priest Elementary that not only employs Romanian speaking parapros, but also certified teachers that speak Romanian. I feel that although you have to cater to your community, all students deserve the resources they need to succeed, and the local elementary school does not help the immigrant community they serve adequately. |
Ferntruth
Member
Username: Ferntruth
Post Number: 129
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 1:21 pm: | |
"Fern - thank you for that. I'm not pure, but I'll make my own enemies (how in the hell do I insert a smiley emoticon here?). "
Hell, I don't know either. If you figure it out, tell me and we'll BOTH know! =) |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5282
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 1:30 pm: | |
It's as easy as math....
: + ) = 
: + ( = 
(Just don't use any spaces, or add a nose!)
(Message edited by Gistok on September 06, 2007) |
Daf
Member
Username: Daf
Post Number: 23
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 3:34 pm: | |
I'm white, owned a house here from 83-87, then left the area. While we were gone, we got a taste for the countryside, and got some land out in St Clair County when we returned.
I'm TOTALLY OVER my love for the country, LOL. I'd like nothing better than to get a house in town again, have a 15-minute commute, have diverse neighbors, have stuff to do nearby.
But Mrs. Daf doesn't agree - she liked Detroit well enough, but LOVES the boonies: elbow room, wildlife, slow pace. Meh. |
Ferntruth
Member
Username: Ferntruth
Post Number: 131
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 3:38 pm: | |
quote:
"It's as easy as math.... "
If thats the case, then I am totally screwed! |
Purplecharm
Member
Username: Purplecharm
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 6:30 pm: | |
Frumoasa,
I spoke with a Romanian woman a few years ago that lived on Arden Park, which I think is near the New Center area. I'm not sure how far you live from her, but her last name is/was Rubyan(I think thats how it's spelled). She called the company that I work for to get a quote for home insurance. The replacement cost of her home was over a million dollars. She told me that the home originally belonged to Mr. Kresege. She and her husband used to go to church with Kresge and he sold them the home for well below what it was worth, under the condition that they pay it off in a couple of years. She said that the home had several fireplaces, that the exterior had a triple layer of bricks, 3 stories, etc. The house sounded like it was beautiful.
I really enjoyed speaking with her.
Sorry if I steered off-topic a bit, but your post made me think of my conversation with Mrs. Rubyan. |
Frumoasa
Member
Username: Frumoasa
Post Number: 47
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 8:37 pm: | |
Arden Park is a lovely street right off of Woodward and I believe is a part of Boston Edison. That is not a part of the Romanian neighborhood, but it is surely a lovely area. The Romanian population lives north of Michigan Av, and south of Warren from West of Livernois to the border with Dearborn. Streets like Smart, Trenton, Kirkwood and Casper have lots of Romanian residents and they are served by Priest Elementary, formerly served by Munger Middle and now the Chadsey 6-12th grade school (formerly high school). The homes in that area are much more humble than the one you speak of, but I am sure she had a lovely home considering the history There are always a few of us that don't really want to be in the middle of an ethnic community, I get along with everybody, but I prefer to avoid the gossip that goes along with having neighbors from 2 villages away in Romania! |
Gianni
Member
Username: Gianni
Post Number: 300
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 11:35 pm: | |
I did not know about the Romanian neighborhood in Detroit. That is interesting. When we speak about "white people in Detroit" we don't usually think of newer immigrant communities. Most of the newer immigrant groups in Detroit that I know of are Arab or Chaldean, Mexican or Central American, African, Carribean and Bangaldeshi. I've also heard of some Hmong people in Detroit. Otherwise most of the newer immigrant groups like Indian, Korean, Bosnian, Albanian, Russian etc are in Hamtramck or Dearborn, or in other suburbs like Sterling Heights or Troy.
Where I live, long before it was transformed into a modernist paradise, used to be mostly an Italian and German neighborhood. There are still a few vestiges. Roma Cafe. Eastern Market. Holy Family Catholic Church. (Italian) Schweitzer Place. Trinity Lutheran Church. Jacoby's. Old St. Mary's and St. Joseph's Catholic Churches. (German). A couple weeks ago we went to mass at Holy Family, and the mass was actually in Italian! Apparently they had an Italian priest there who died about a year ago. Of course the few regulars who still go there now all live out in Macomb Township or some other east side exurb where most of the Italians have fled.
It is too bad that there aren't more stable ethnic neighborhoods in Detroit. It would really help the city I believe. Unfortunately even when new immigrants move here (with the possible exception of the Hispanic community in SW Detroit), there is an unstoppable centrifugal force that spins them off to the far flung suburbs. Assimilation is good but so is the liveliness and charm that ethnic neighborhoods give to a city.
An interesting aside -- I visited my ancestral town in Central Italy this summer. There are a lot of new Romanian immigrants there also. |
Lombaowski
Member
Username: Lombaowski
Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 6:39 am: | |
multsumesc Frumoasa. That's great to hear.
As far as Gianni's point on immigrants and ethnic neighborhoods Thomas Sugrue brought up the same point in The Origins of the Urban Crisis. Strong ethnic neighborhoods like Southie in Boston, Bensonhurst in Brooklyn, Chestnut Hill in Philadelphia, the Row in Baltimore, and many others have maintained their status as good places to live because of a strong ethnic base that refuses to let the areas go bad.
Detroit through the years had some ethnic enclaves but most were in response to immigration and the Poles who probably had the strongest foothold were in the worst areas and thus moved when they could. Since Detroit was made up of what essentially was communist type housing around factories where workers lived near their workplace, and since when people moved they moved into mixed ethnic neighborhoods like my old neighborhood on the west side, the result was a split among groups. People born from the same vine will congregate, hold, and defend their areas as the neighborhood is an extension of their roots. Detroit had neighborhoods that were majority German, Italian, or Greek but what they didn't have were neighborhoods that were all Russian, Romanian, or Irish. IMO I believe that since those ethnic groups never really had a blood ownership of their neighborhoods it became much easier to leave for the suburbs in the 60s and 70s when overwhelming pressure and change came to the city.
To me immigrants can reclaim parts of the city that have been lost to those with renters mentality or those who simply don't care. What it takes is home ownership, a safe community, dedication to the end of establishing a Romanian (or whatever) footprint, and the willingness of city officials to support those endeavors. Then what you will see is current residents in Detroit who want to be safe and happy and want to live within the city move closer to those neighborhoods. Then you will see some fro the suburbs move back. It's almost a reverse of what happened in the 60s and 70s but I do think it is possible. Immigrants and their success and willingness to establish their own little ethnic enclave where they can live, work, and speak the same language with their neighbors and feel like they were back home is a big step in bringing the city back from the dead (I think the low point of the city is past us now but we are barely climbing back up the hill). I wish those folks like the ones living on Casper St the very best and hope they stay for good. I'll go down for a borsch or stuffed cabbage any day. |
Frumoasa
Member
Username: Frumoasa
Post Number: 48
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 10:37 am: | |
Gianni and Lombaowski: You state a very valid fact. Most people do not know the community is there and do not support it. The pattern of migration for Romanians is if you start on the SW side and attend churches in Dearborn/Detroit/Taylor, you first move out to Dearborn Heights, or west Dearborn if you have a bit more money, then out to Canton. If you are an east side Romanian and attend churches in Troy or Madison Heights, you generally start out in Hazel Park/south Madison Heights, move up to Troy/Sterling Heights and then out to Macomb/Oakland Township, basically following the Polish migration pattern. It seems though that all new ethnic communities in Detroit are bordering on non Detroit ethnic cities IE: SW Detroit + Dearborn and n. of Carpenter E. of JC is to Hamtramck. In my own perspective, I find it comfortable to be around people that share my experience, if not my culture. I remember school administrators trying to stick me in ESL classes in school just because of my name and having my parents fight to put me into the mainstream class where I belonged. My husband came over 6 years ago with $200 in his pocket. Even if people do not come from the same country, they still know what it's like to be immigrant/ 1st generation. Plus, it's nice to be around ethnic markets and generally ethnic communities are very walkable, so they're a good place to expand into the city of Detroit, if all of Warren Av. was as busy and walkable as the east Dearborn portion, the city would have yet another thriving retail district such as Vernor on their hands. My advice to Kwame: Make more than 6 areas for targeted improvement. Throw a little money to us folks in the new immigrant neighborhoods, some people have a lot of neighborhood pride but not a lot of funds. |
Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 1879
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:37 am: | |
Bratt has started the ultimate "elephant in the room" thread, something that is not often discussed here, but is worth discussing. Interesting thread so far, anyway.
Lombaowski, nice posts. One question --
quote:Detroit had neighborhoods that were majority German, Italian, or Greek but what they didn't have were neighborhoods that were all Russian, Romanian, or Irish.
Are you saying that Russians/Romanians/Irish tend to form more close-knit communities in general, or was it that the German/Italian/Greek neighborhoods just happened to have a weaker majority here so it was easier for the neighborhoods to lose their identities? |
Frumoasa
Member
Username: Frumoasa
Post Number: 50
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:18 pm: | |
Doug: The "Romanian neighborhood" (the one I can speak of most competently) is by no means all Romanian. It just has the largest concentration of Romanians in the metro area (according to Census data). All of the Romos I know that live in the area have a variety of neighbors: Lebanese, Honduran and Polish just off the top of my head. The community isn't so much close knit, because there are a lot of religious and regional divisions (Pentecostal/Orthodox) and (Transilvanian/Moldavian) and the community is not really unified, but everyone knows that there are other Romanians around and that apparently makes them a bit more comfortable, even though there is no infrastructure of stores and grocers to serve the community, people like the comfort of knowing there are countrymen experiencing the same when they are scraping to make it over here. |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 10:59 pm: | |
Something that we must remember about race relations in Detroit, is the 1943 race riot.
I have the particular July, 1943 LIFE magazine in my classroom that depicts seriously awful white-on-black brutality....something that black folks living on the Bottom never forgot....that event burned-in some serious hatred.
My family moved from Mt. Pleasant to the Bottom in 1965, we lived there until October of 1967; the older residents told us stories about the 1943 race riot.
White folks came and went as they pleased in and around Detroit; black folks were locked-into the Bottom - where tales of '43 were passed along to the next generation. It wasn't until the 1960s...late 1960's...that residents from the Bottom were truly able to live where they pleased in Detroit.
If I was a black man, living in Detroit, during the 40s, 50s, and 60s - I sure as hell would not be a very happy person.
Do the math.
We see hatred and violence between various ethnic groups in other countries; why should the very same thing - on our own soil - come as a surprise? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3954
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 11:06 pm: | |
Oakwood Heights is right next to the Detroit Salt mine. The mine just turned 100 years old, I think, and that neighborhood dates back that far. I ran into the head guy there back during March when he was discussing the mine's operation, rehabilitation, and history. |
Terryh
Member
Username: Terryh
Post Number: 533
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 11:24 pm: | |
Chuckjav I have to see that issue of life magazine. Ive read and researched extensively on the 43 riot. The Burton Historical collection has some pics. Ive read newspaper articles about the riot in the microfilm room of the library, as well as two books on the incident. I am having a hard time locating that particular issue of life. Do you ever attend the Detroit yes forum meetings? |
Chuckjav
Member
Username: Chuckjav
Post Number: 30
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 7:44 am: | |
Terryh....Unfortunately, I only get to Detroit about once every six weeks or so. The meetings that you speak of sound very interesting; is there a schedule? |
Lombaowski
Member
Username: Lombaowski
Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 8:13 am: | |
Doug W>Hi
You said: "Are you saying that Russians/Romanians/Irish tend to form more close-knit communities in general, or was it that the German/Italian/Greek neighborhoods just happened to have a weaker majority here so it was easier for the neighborhoods to lose their identities?"
No I would not say that, that's just how it was. I think Russians and Eastern Europeans would form close knit communities today as we are seeing an influx of them coming to America now. I'd actually like to see some research from immigration patterns to big cities over the past ten years to see if they are in fact moving into the same areas. I used the Italians and Irish as examples because they were known to stick in tightly knit neighborhoods for decades and really you can still find examples of those enclaves in many major cities to this day. |
Mallory
Member
Username: Mallory
Post Number: 196
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 8:39 am: | |
I travel extensively and when I tell people I'm from Detroit, they always have that slightly animate bristle. You know, it's the usual "murder capital" crap. Depending on who it is, I'll either tell them that in Detroit, it isn't a white or black issue. It's usually a green issue. In this life, it's all about the money, and everyone makes it as best they can.
Other people, I usually tell them that it's like any other big city, so go try Philadelphia and see how much better it is. I'll stay in Detroit. |
Revolutionary
Member
Username: Revolutionary
Post Number: 135
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 3:57 pm: | |
I used to wonder why some white folks reported not feeling welcome in the city after a visit.
After encountering a few scenes of young white people with cameras scurrying back to their cars with terrified looks on their faces, it made a lot more sense. (That is, if they even bother getting out of their cars).
When I bicycle through the city sometimes there's a split second where someone looks at me from their porch and probably wonders, "what's that guy doing here". Amazingly, it all seems to evaporate when I say hello and wave. Say hello enough times and people start to remember you.
Pretty soon you're at back yard barbecues wondering why people are so terrified, then you see an old white guy at a stoplight who's terrified of YOU, then it starts to make sense. |
Soulhawk
Member
Username: Soulhawk
Post Number: 317
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 5:19 pm: | |
Other than the fact that Bratt mentioned race, I fail to see how Bratt's original question has anything to do with race. It is a matter of safety, and Detroit is not a safe city for young children. The murder rate of children in Detroit is astronomical; I remember the Freep running stories not more than a few years ago that highlighted our nation leading, which puts us in the running for the world, child murder rate statistics. Just because I don't want to raise kids in the city, and send them to a school system that is in constant turmoil and scandal does not mean I am racist. Just because I won't let my kids hang out at Cass Park does not mean I am racist. I find it terribly sad that the Cass Tech kids have to be confronted with the ugliness that is Cass Park. I am surprised that no one else was outraged by the allegations leveled by Bratt. His use of the word "claim" indicts all white people on this board. My question is, are the black families that move out of the city, say to Southfield, and send their kids to Southfield schools racist against other blacks? |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 41
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 9:27 pm: | |
I agree with Soulhawk, Danny on the first page, and Detroit_Stylin.
I have noticed that there's a lot of White American posters on the site, compared to African Americans. You don't hear much about black experiences as you do experiences from the white side simply because of the decent in which the posters come from.
However, Soulhawk has it summed up. People only want a decent life for themselves and their families and apparently the citizens and government of Detroit isn't really helping their objective. However, I can see the race issue that escalated here is based off a 85% A-A population and A-A government. There's also a media stereotype that Inner city A-A with low to little income does nothing but hurt the community. These may be reasons why too many white people choose not to live in a certain town/city, but not the main or only reasons.
Then there's crime. Apparently, people care about their items and well beings knowing if they're ever bothered, law enforcement wil be on top of your issue right away. This is no where near the case in Detroit. This may be part of the reason as well why developers choose not to gentrify the neighborhoods. Not because the demand isn't there, but because of the fear of vandalism.
However, a school is a school, an officer is an officer, an person is a person, no matter what colored person occupies the location/occupation. The only difference may be who has more resources than the next person/officer/school. |
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