 
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 9:43 am: |    |
Ford Fusion with a 4-popper. 30 miles to the gallon. 100,000 mile warranty. Yes, it is made in Mexico. Yes, it wad designed in Dearborn. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2249
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 11:45 am: | |
That G6 would only get about 24-25 combined city/highway mpg. By the time you've got any decent options on it, you're over $22,000.
Forgot about the Fusion... it's sort of a tin can, isn't it, like the Aveo? |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2250
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 11:47 am: | |
"Fit and finish, ergonomics, reliability, high mpg and styling are why these people buy. All I am saying is beat Honda and Toyota on fit and finish, ergonomics, reliability, MPG and styling and you will gain sales. Don't demonize people who are trying to get the best value for the buck."
Amen. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2287
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
Dang Fury, you sure are passionate about hating American cars. Seems like any time the topic comes up, you are the top poster in the thread, doing whatever you can to prove foreign cars are better. How many shares of Toyota stock do you own anyway? ;) |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2251
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 12:01 pm: | |
Johnlodge, I simply want the American auto industry to do better. For years, the domestic automakers have offered the consumer mediocre choices in terms of fuel economy and reliability. They're starting to come around, but they're not there yet.
My point is that if they don't respond to what the market wants, they'll die. And that's not good for any of us in this region.
On the other hand, I will not prop up a sagging, non-responsive industry by buying what I feel is an inferior choice. Ford, GM, and Chrysler need to make changes -- fast.
We do not need another Camaro. We do not need the next-generation Hummer.
What we need is a Model T for the 21st century.
I'll be the first in line to buy an American car when I'm in the market for a new car again (around 2013) IF the U.S. automakers make fuel efficiency and low total cost of ownership a high priority. |
Civilprotectionunit4346
Member
Username: Civilprotectionunit4346
Post Number: 498
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 12:09 pm: | |
Let's face it most of the American Auto manufactuers aren't giving people want they want now, great fuel economy & a good quality car. Ever wonder why they give yer GM vehicle a 100,000 mile warranty?
Because it's going to break down somewhere around 30k. Speaking of the Cobalt, they compared it with the Mazda 3...Mazda 3 won out in that comparison. The market has changed now, most people don't want a huge hulking suv. Look at the gas prices. Ive said it before, the time of the suv craze is coming. Another thing what's with this stupid ass crossover vehicles. They still are an SUV...why the F--k are they calling it a crossover. If it sucks gas like an suv, looks as goofy as one..then it is one. |
Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 280
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 12:30 pm: | |
Well Fury...that would be "well designed, efficient, and reliable" base on YOUR standards.
And based on your standards, you're 100% correct. From Edmunds.com, the domestics didn't have a single compact car, under $20k, with a minimum city/hwy mpg of 25/30 AND a consumer rating greater than 9. Meanwhile, the other brands had 10 models that met that criteria.
BUT...
What if I want a truck?
What if I want a larger car?
What if I want a van?
What if (God forbid) I want an SUV?
Just doing a search on Edmunds.com:
Full Size Trucks (4 results)
Max MSRP = $25k
Min City/Hwy mpg = 20/25
Chevy Silverado*
Ford F-150
GMC Sierra*
Toyota Tundra*
*Had Consumer's Rating >9
Mid/Full Size Sedan (18 results)
Max MSRP ($25,000)
Min City/Hwy mpg 20/30
Buick Lacross*
Chevy Impala
Chevy Malibu
Chrysler Sebring
Ford Fusion*
Honda Accord*
Hyundai Sonata*
Kia Optima*
Mazda 6*
Mercury Milan*
Mitsubishi Galant
Nissan Altima*
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Grand Prix
Saturn Aura*
Subaru Legacy*
Toyota Camry
VW Passant
Van (2 results)
Max MSRP = $25k
Min City/Hwy mpg = 20/25
Dodge Caravan*
Mazda 5*
*Had Consumer's Rating >9
SUV (11 results)
Max MSRP = $25k
Min City/Hwy mpg = 20/25
Ford Escape*
Honda CR-V*
Honda Element*
Hyundai Santa Fe*
Hyundai Tucson*
Jeep Compass*
Jeep Patriot
Kia Sportage
Mercury Mariner*
Mitsubishi Outlander*
Saturn Vue
Toyota Highlander
Toyota Rav4
*Had Consumer's Rating >9
Looks like plenty of American made choices base on someone else's criteria.
And I don't care what anyone says...people are still buying those types of vehicles.
(Message edited by dnvn522 on September 11, 2007) |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 2111
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 12:32 pm: | |
um, the fusion? sorry, it's a great car. the aveo is a piece of junk (suzuki sourced?) and about 40% smaller than a focus |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 386
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 1:14 pm: | |
Who buys a car for fuel mileage alone? Thats like buying a house because it has a more efficient furnace. If you're that strapped for cash you should be riding a bike anyway.
We drive our big gas guzzlers because:
1. Its safer when some drunk broadsides or rear-ends us at an intersection. A friend on mine got hit head-on making a left turn at a light in her Toyota, it was totaled, the other car a Mercury just had some bumper damage, the guy drove it away. Plus both airbags went off and broke her nose and left her partially blinded in one eye. After three surgeries, she's recovered. Poorly engineered? Of course it is. It's Jap junk. Does the news report that? The man in the American car was completely uninjured, his airbag went off too.
2. We support our country and it's industries when possible, and realize our future depends on it.
3. We can afford it.
4. We don't like looking like we just drove in from a 3rd world country.
5. We're tall, fat and proud of it and can't fit where a chinese person can.
6. When gas goes back down, we won't be stuck with a novelty that nobody wants.
7. We like looking down at foreign cars at the lights and laughing.
8. If we go to AutoZone for a part, the clerk won't look so disgusted when we answer "what kind of car" And we won't here, "There ain't one in the country, you're looking at 3-4 months at least" Or "All these parts for foreign cars are expensive" |
Wally
Member
Username: Wally
Post Number: 302
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 1:33 pm: | |
quote:6. When gas goes back down, .......
LOL!
quote:Who buys a car for fuel mileage alone? Thats like buying a house because it has a more efficient furnace. If you're that strapped for cash you should be riding a bike anyway.
If it were only that simple.
One thing is for sure, my next car will be a car that gets a minimum of 30mpg in the city. Hopefully GM will offer a likeable car in that category by then, not a little shitbox like the Aveo. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2099
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 2:15 pm: | |
quote:The loss of the electronics industry wasn't felt because we really never had one to lose.
That is one of the funniest things I have read on this website. I tell you the more and more I hear from some people makes we wonder why you expect others to feel sorry for your jobs. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 28
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 2:23 pm: | |
Fury13,
I used to buy foreign cars (foreign as in HQ outside of the US). I now own that "tin can" you refer to and frankly, it beats the Japanese cars I've previously owned and the luxury sedans from Germany in terms of gas mileage and reliability. I bought it as a junker car for transportation when I was traveling long distances. It's turned out to be the best car I ever bought.
You said:
"OK then. Examples, please. And keep your examples under about $18,000 base price (so that we're certain to be talking about cars most people can afford -- in other words, cars purchased for transportation purposes, not as toys or status symbols). Also: "efficient" is the key qualifier here, so we're talking about at least 27-28 mpg combined city/highway (really, 30 mpg should be the minimum benchmark)."
Example provided. How is a Camry or Toyota (a similarly sized and equiped vehicle to a Fusion) not a "tin can" by your own rationalizations? |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 388
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 2:37 pm: | |
We don't expect anyone to feel sorry. When some umm person calls us SUCKERS. Don't expect us not to answer it with some truths.
The 1960's US electronics industry, the amount of electronics being produced globally today? What we lost was a drop in the bucket. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2252
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 3:47 pm: | |
Fusion, Focus, Ficus, Mucus (that's the Mercury version, right?)... sorry, got 'em confused... they all sound so similar.
I was talking about the Focus. Looks and feels cheap to me. Corollas and Civics do not.
Sstashmoo, I really hope you're joking about your "list." If you're serious, that's illustrative of why people from other countries often find Americans arrogant, boorish, jingoistic, and overbearing. Your post sounds like it's out of a script from a John Wayne movie, for God's sake. |
Jiminnm
Member
Username: Jiminnm
Post Number: 1411
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 3:54 pm: | |
sstashmoo, ask the folks who once made TVs, radios, hi-fis (then, stereos), tape recorders and decks, etc. for RCA Victor, Zenith, Motorola, Admiral, Curtis Mathes, GE, Philco, and others if there was an industry there. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2256
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 4:02 pm: | |
There also used to be an American guitar industry. Companies like Harmony, Kay, Valco, and others made thousands and thousands of instruments, from student-level to professional grade models. Now, only Fender, Gibson, and a few much smaller makers (Rickenbacker, Jerry Jones, G&L, etc.) are left in the U.S., and a lot of "Fenders" aren't U.S.-made.
It was a huge market and the U.S. makers conceded it to the Japanese by the early '70s. Now the Chinese and Koreans build many, if not most, of the guitars out there (also many are still made in Japan and Mexico).
This type of thing seems to happen with nearly every American manufacturing industry.
(Message edited by Fury13 on September 11, 2007) |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1304
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 4:07 pm: | |
Because we demand cheap cheap cheap, but high wages, and resist automation whenever possible! Guess who wins? The consumer. Not the worker and not the industry. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 389
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 4:47 pm: | |
Quite: "Now, only Fender, Gibson, and a few much smaller makers (Rickenbacker, Jerry Jones, G&L, etc.) are left in the U.S., and a lot of "Fenders" aren't U.S.-made."
Ahem.. C F Martin?
My list? there's truth in jest. (Pilgrim) |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2100
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 4:57 pm: | |
quote:We don't expect anyone to feel sorry.
Really? Funny because everyday on this forum and the newspaper there is another UAW slappy calling for pity.
It mus be nice to think the world revolves around Detroit. Must be that American dominance (arrogance) thing we keep hearing about. |
Papa
Member
Username: Papa
Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 5:27 pm: | |
To go with the assumption that GM, Chrysler and Ford are "American" cars is a delusion. I have worked for GM dealers for nearly 15 years. The parts keep coming in labeled "made in Taiwan", "made in Mexico", "made in China", and on and on.
Less than 50% of GM's operations are now domestically in the US, as companies like Toyota and BMW are building plants, the "Big 3" keep closing plants or moving them out.
Foreign cars are becoming Domestic and putting Americans to work. Domestic cars are becoming foreign and putting Americans out of work.
Something is seriously wrong in CarTown.
*edit: spelling
(Message edited by papa on September 11, 2007) |
Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 155
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 6:46 pm: | |
American companies still seem to be too preoccupied with cost-cutting and profits.as in, build a cheaper car,then sell it for a profit.I can't think of many limited-edition vehicles being made now.
Japanese companies are more image-concious and seem to focus on value and reliability. I was told by a former US autoworker that in Japan, if a product fails or is overly flawed, the top people behind it lose everything. The company provides their housing. When the product has a flaw, he/she loses their job and their home.
Here, we just have the UAW trying to distract from it by placing their blame wherever they can instead of simply saying "Our guys screwed up, and we're sorry." Its all about trying to profit off an underwhelming product, then harrassing people into buying it with their attempts at guilt trips.
Japanese-Sell products based on value and innovation.
Americans-sell by fear and harrassment |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 390
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 7:12 pm: | |
^LOL |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 114
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 7:25 pm: | |
H. Ford introduced the worlds first 5.00 a day pay scale so his workers could buy his cars and live half decently. Now Detroit is forced to get car parts for workers out of the US making 3-10.00 hour so overseas buyers can buy a car and compete with imports and keep a black bottom line. Unfortunately this trend will continue, so it goes...
On the coasts most people drive foreign and don't think to much about Detroit's plight. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 11:13 pm: | |
I drive a 2002 Taraus and its been a great car and gets 22 mpg. We also own a German car and its a POS. It drives great but is and has been from day one a maintenance nightmare.
The critics of Detroit cars have a lot of valid points, but I do think the public tends to vilify American cars. I recall reading a statitic that drivers of the Geo Prizm found the car considerably less reliable than drivers of the Corrola even though they were in fact the exact same car made by Toyota at the exact same factory in California.
I also think its noteworthy at the domestics are doing very well overseas, which I think validates them to a degree. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 392
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 11:37 pm: | |
Quote: "drivers of the Geo Prizm found the car considerably less reliable than drivers of the Corrola even though they were in fact the exact same car made by Toyota"
Interesting paradigm. |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1614
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 11:56 pm: | |
A Honda Accord or Toyota Camry doesn't average 30 mpg. Not even close. Brand new 2008 Accord 4 cylinder with a manual tranny...22 city/ 31 highway. Toyota Camry 21/31.
So why are we acting like Japanese cars get superior economy anyways? Oh, because the stereotype is that American cars are shitty gas guzzlers. Open your eyes. yes, there are japanese cars that get better mileage. Yet we are going to ignore those American cars that beat it? We are going to ignore pickups? Full size cars?
So I guess we are talking only about small, compact cars and eliminating any other models from the discussion?
I've never owned an American car. But doesn't mean I never will. I certainly don't think badly about them, and I enjoy test driving frequently.
For that matter I've never bought ANY new car, so nobody gets my money.
These conversations always get so dumb. And I'm always amazed at the pure hatred out there, that exists for both sides. Why don't we start getting into fights about who makes a better washing machine, whirlpool or Samsung? Or who makes a better computer, Dell or Fujitsu? It gets ridiculous. |
Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 158
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 4:46 am: | |
How many of these pro-America people whining about the downfall of the American auto industry have a Honda lawnmower and maybe a Kawasaki motorcycle? If your on a budget and want a bike, I doubt your getting a Harley.
Im just saying.... |
Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 163
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 6:05 am: | |
How stupid, GM drops a program that it never started?????
The real stupidity is some people are "reading something" into nothing.
Isn't the internet great for spreading total garbage? |
Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 281
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 7:06 am: | |
quote:How many of these pro-America people whining about the downfall of the American auto industry have a Honda lawnmower Briggs & Stratton engines only baby!!!
 |
Gps
Member
Username: Gps
Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 8:58 pm: | |
If you read the article and take it at face value the program worked for the Aura, increasing sales 24%, and they are now focusing marketing monies towards the new VUE.
Good for GM that they are confident enough in one of their cars to put it head to head against the Camry and Accord, two of the best cars ever made. That confidence in their product was the message GM wants to send to car buyers, and it brought people into showrooms.
It's a good time to be a car buyer, all the companies are making great cars right now. |
Softailrider
Member
Username: Softailrider
Post Number: 66
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 3:12 am: | |
Not according to Consumers Reports . They say there's some great ones and some aren't so great at all . |
Drjeff
Member
Username: Drjeff
Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 5:35 pm: | |
Fury13 said:
"I was talking about the Focus. Looks and feels cheap to me. Corollas and Civics do not."
Are you kidding me? When my wife needed a new car we test drove a Corolla. That was the biggest POS I've ever driven, other than perhaps the 1976 Vega my parents had. The Corolla was literally a box on wheels, with roll down windows no less. It drove like it had a 2 cylinder engine. Good luck pulling into busy traffic. We both agreed that this was not acceptable or safe for her to drive. My ex-wife had a Civic for several years. That car had a nice engine but was very poorly engineered otherwise. I found it very annoying to drive, especially at night when the headlights didn't illuminate more than 30 feet in front of the car. Both of those cars screamed "cheap" in every way. I just don't see what the attraction is.
I drive 2002 Sebring that was built in Sterling Heights, has never given me a problem other then routine wear and tear, is now at 107,000 miles, and gets 26-28 mpg in mixed driving. All highway it can hit 30 mpg. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2406
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 6:05 pm: | |
Drjeff: Sorry, but 26-28 mpg is just not good enough.
I know I wouldn't purchase a car that gets such mediocre mileage. |
Rrl
Member
Username: Rrl
Post Number: 904
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 12:33 pm: | |
Here is another option for you Fury.
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070926/OPINI ON03/709260324
It's got your criteria, price, mileage (avg 29.5 for manual), and even a few bells & whistles.
Maybe it's time to drop the Yaris and come home to Fords.... |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 2451
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 2:26 pm: | |
"Compacts used to be "cheap and cheerful" -- those are Fields' words, not mine -- and the original Focus wasn't even cheery.
Thus, foreign carmakers ate Ford's compact lunch. To this day, Ford does not have a car smaller than the Focus in its American lineup (though the automaker is working to remedy that).
Until then, this Focus can and, more importantly, will compete with the likes of the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla and Chevy Cobalt."
I'll wait for the subcompact that Ford is working on (the one smaller than the Focus). That might be a good one, and it'll probably get close to 40 mpg. If the quality looks good, I'll definitely consider it. |
Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln
Post Number: 200
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 3:45 pm: | |
My number 1 problem with American companies now is their attitude. The put guilt trips on people.
The Camry comparison idea was good because GM was trying to let the car sell itself. Unfortunately, too many people working for UAW companies still harrass and intimidate people that don't buy their products...Something Honda empoyees do not do. The more someone tries to pressure me to buy from them, the more turned off I get. If they resort to intimidation, its a deal-breaker.
"Youre destroying the econmony." "Youre killing the city." Well, youre using old technology that got surpassed, rested on your laurels while relying on ONE industry, and now are trying to SCARE me into guilt to buy a car.Because of this, I was going to buy a foreign-nameplate upon my last purchase. I ended up buying a 3-year old Cavalier because I was able to get a newer, lower-mileage car for a low cost by buying it, and because I was in a bad accident with my first one and walked away, so I felt safe with one. Don't know what I'll do next time around. |
New threads cannot be started on this page. The threads above are previous posts made to this thread.