 
Mrsjdaniels
Member
Username: Mrsjdaniels
Post Number: 270
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 6:48 pm: |    |
who wants to buy a house in OP...we need to sell too :-) |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 80
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 8:08 pm: | |
In all honesty, there is another flaw in the study. The demographic is 18-24. At 18, I went to college. At 23, I went to grad school. At 26, I finished my advanced degrees. This sequence played more of a role in where I lived than anything else frankly.
I'd be more interested in the 27-35 demographic. |
Viziondetroit
Member
Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 1125
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 8:20 pm: | |
I know a lot of people who have moved but want to return. They say the area may be nicer, but they don't have much to do. The little things they are used to, they don't get in the areas in which they move to.
I'm 28 and I've been a lot of places which were nicer than Detroit by far..BUT I could never live there. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4174
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 8:32 pm: | |
Plenty of young adults today have fewer choices than, say, a decade ago if they are un- or undereducated--a not uncommon Michigan character trait. If they wasted their schooling years, as a number of recent local polls indicated, their taking the easy route and blowing off their education will bite them in the ass when they enter the real world (outside Michigan).
For those, it doesn't matter much where they go because they are not sought after in the workplace. |
321brian
Member
Username: 321brian
Post Number: 468
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 8:47 pm: | |
The greatest thing about living here is that it makes every place you travel to great.
It doesn't matter if it is Columbus, Orlando, L.A., Cincinnati, Orlando, or wherever they are all better than being here.
Granted I probably wouldn't want to live there in most of the places I have traveled to but it would be nice to go somewhere and say " Damn this place sucks. I just want to go home.". |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 240
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 8:57 pm: | |
It is so great to hear that our hard earned tax dollars are benefiting other states.
I wonder what the just the tax cost of lost talent is on Michigan, Jenny?
I can't blame anyone looking to make the most $$. |
Granmontrules
Member
Username: Granmontrules
Post Number: 186
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 9:34 pm: | |
I think most young people would leave any state they are in for something different or potentially better. |
Viziondetroit
Member
Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 1127
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 9:37 pm: | |
Yeah they shoulda raised the age demo in the survey. Kids 18 years old wanna do anything rebellious for the most part anyway when they graduate high school. |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 28
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 11:03 pm: | |
True, I don't doubt the results of this survey but as someone just outside the age range of the survey I have to say that while a lot of my friends have left Detroit many of them have also returned. Many left the city looking to live someplace "cool" like DC, San Fran, Chicago but in 5-6 years many of them are through with that stage of their lives and want to return back to Detroit because of the great people, quality of life and everything else they miss about this region. I'd really like to see the statistics regarding how many of these young people return to Detroit after leaving. |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4197
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 11:44 pm: | |
Well I came here when I was 18-24 because I could walk into Ford's and get a union wages summer job on line in the Rouge. Go figure. Two summers of hard work at near minimum wage in small town Wisconsin as a roofer was an incentive.
Kids are mobile without deep roots and adventurous. They will go where the jobs are, just as I did, and the better the jobs pay the more they will be drawn.
Hip or not. They will go for the gold.
26 years ago "Black Plate" Michigan runaways flooded into Texas. Street newspaper-sellers sold Dallas and Houston papers on Woodward for their want ads. Unemployment surged to almost 20% in Detroit and state unemployment was 5% above national rate [compared to less than 3% today] and the city and state were pronounced DOA.
This round does not compare, except that there aren't great jobs anywhere that anyone can walk into. |
Hybridy
Member
Username: Hybridy
Post Number: 160
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:01 am: | |
moved here 5 years ago for school
i've held career-related jobs in wi, mi, and sc
had great experiences in all
people will make the best of every opportunity wherever they are
i'd love to stay here as my gf was mi born and raised
we'll both have M Archs next spring
i guess we'll know by may 08
maybe someone on here will have an inside lead for an architectural intern position in metro detroit by then
ps-my class of 55+ will be the largest class of UDM architecture majors to graduate
we'd all love to live and work here but more than 60% have job offers/have worked out of state
unfortunate indeed |
Goose
Member
Username: Goose
Post Number: 47
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:18 am: | |
wonder how many college grads or 18-24 year olds from the other 49 states are chomping at the bit to move here to michigan???? bet its a very very very low number......
think they graduate from yale or mit or stanford or wisconsin or indiana or florida state, etc etc and say, gee, once i graduate, i'm moving to michigan to get a job in that land of opportunity....... |
Track75
Member
Username: Track75
Post Number: 2618
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:25 am: | |
quote:True, I don't doubt the results of this survey but as someone just outside the age range of the survey I have to say that while a lot of my friends have left Detroit many of them have also returned. Many left the city looking to live someplace "cool" like DC, San Fran, Chicago but in 5-6 years many of them are through with that stage of their lives and want to return back to Detroit because of the great people, quality of life and everything else they miss about this region. I'd really like to see the statistics regarding how many of these young people return to Detroit after leaving. Been there, done that. Lived in a couple west coast cities, then a couple east coast cities, all downtown. Came back here, lived downtown. Back to an east coast city, downtown. Back here, started a business, a family, not going anywhere.
Jobs will pull people, young and old, out of an area. The desire to live in a thriving city will pull people out too. But there's a pretty large number of people like me who came back because they like what Detroit and Michigan have to offer.
After college most people seek a more vibrant city atmosphere. At some point however most people don't go bar hopping and dining out every night, or to the museums, theaters and lectures. That's when our region gains an advantage, IMO. Unlike most "hip" cities the cost of living here is pretty low. You can have a nice house in a nice neighborhood with good schools and one parent staying home without going broke. That's tough to do on both coasts. To a younger person that's the definition of boring, but you'd be surprised how priorities change over time.
The work-life balance is also pretty good here compared to many big cities. There's not a 100 hours/week lawyer/I-banker/consultant work culture here or two-hour commutes. With some skills you can live a comfortable life with enough left over to have a place Up North, some toys or frequent travel. The cultural amenities available in other big cities are available here in varying amounts. In many ways, it is what ever you make of it.
It's not for everyone, particularly young singles or couples, but its simply not true that everyone wants out of Michigan. A good economy will keep more grads here and pull more workers in from all over. It's happened before and it will again. |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:47 am: | |
I second that but will add vibrant downtown to good economy. I think ultimately a good economy is probably the biggest factor. See previous posts describing growth in sprawl areas like Phoenix, Houston, etc. However, I think that in the end both factors are important to retaining and growing our region. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 449
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 1:01 am: | |
All young people want to leave where they are. They associate other places like vacation destinations with being better. Then they grow up and realize they need a paycheck to go along with the palm trees.
I have friends in the South, they say the heat has been unbearable this past summer. In a lot of places it's still very warm. Who wants to sit under an air conditioner all the time? We can dress for cold weather. Near hundred degree temps for long periods are just miserable. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3332
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 1:03 am: | |
Most people I know that left the state are pretty happy where they ended up and have no intention of ever coming back. They ask me why I am staying in a dying area. I am beginning to wonder about that myself. I love Michigan but there are other options. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 824
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 1:49 am: | |
Track, the problem is people sort of get settled into an area in their mid to late 20s. They don't turn 30, realize they have two kids (how did that happen?) and then move to a new region. If you don't have 'em at 27, you won't have 'em at 35.
I read a lot of bunk about "everybody that age wants to leave". Not so. People who go to college in Chicago tend to stay in Chicago in significant numbers; same as Denver, Boston, San Francisco, Seattle. People who go to college in and around Detroit tend to leave and never come back. This is the essential reason other regions are outpacing us in population growth: the 18 to 34 demographic.
Detroitnerd, I agree: between the pissing tax and the moaning tax we will be rolling in dough. I suggest we call them "fee" or "surcharge" though. That fools people into thinking they are not paying a tax.
By the way, kids, a thriving local economy is an effect not a cause. You get that as a result of doing other things. I would suggest we aren't doing those other things. |
Abracadabra
Member
Username: Abracadabra
Post Number: 100
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 4:00 am: | |
If it wasn't for the casino and the profitable job that it has brought our family, we'd have been gone a couple of years ago. I'm 29, malady is 27. We tried to head off to Vegas in '05, but it didn't pan out. We have a pair of kids, but that doesn't hold us here so much as a job that pays too much. |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 259
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 8:30 am: | |
Meh. This is just another "let's feel bad for ourselves" survey. I'm 26 and my girlfriend who is 27 have no intention of moving anywhere...so I guess we're now out of the target demographic, but we're pretty happy right here in Michigan.
I have some friends who moved to Phoenix. I saw pictures of their "future" new house. It was going to be a bland, stucco suburban house (much like every other one in the development) with a patch of green sod over what is now flat desert land. They're within driving distance to the Lowes, Chilis, Wal-Mart, etc. I mean, isn't that tempting? Temperatures might hit 120 during the day, but it's a 'dry heat' they say...
I've said it before...but I feel like a lot of the college grads that leave have little to offer. They're looking for what a job has to offer them, and all they present is a mediocre degree earned on the side while they focused on partying in college. Detroit doesn't seem 'cool' enough for them, and they feel that just by living in place with palm trees or big-city life their life will be more meaningful. Moving is fine, but a more interesting survey would ask what it is they're looking to find in their relocation.
There are plenty of jobs in Michigan right now for specific skills - a good friend of mine is a recruiter and is always busy looking for people.
(Message edited by wazootyman on October 03, 2007) |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3413
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:06 am: | |
quote:
I've said it before...but I feel like a lot of the college grads that leave have little to offer. They're looking for what a job has to offer them, and all they present is a mediocre degree earned on the side while they focused on partying in college. Detroit doesn't seem 'cool' enough for them, and they feel that just by living in place with palm trees or big-city life their life will be more meaningful.
Don't you think that's a bit judgmental and overgeneralized? |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 260
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 11:21 am: | |
Probably. That's why I said 'a lot', not all. It's a statement based on people I know that have left the state. Rarely do they have any given reason for leaving other than "Michigan has nothing to offer me". Never mind that they've got a 2.8 GPA and a General Business Administration degree.
Michigan is generally a pretty great place to live. It's too bad so many people dwell on the negative and can't wait to get out. The grass isn't always greener... |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3415
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 11:25 am: | |
quote:Michigan is generally a pretty great place to live. It's too bad so many people dwell on the negative and can't wait to get out. The grass isn't always greener...
I don't disagree one bit. There are pluses and minuses no matter where you go. I just wish Michigan dwelled a lot more on the positive than the negative (and used the positives to overcome the negatives). I don't know if it's just a Rust Belt attitude or not, but it always seems a lot more pessimistic when I come back. |
Bobj
Member
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 2423
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 11:36 am: | |
I agree completely Dan, my son moved to DC 4 1/2 years ago thinking it was the best place in the world. (right out of college) It is amazing the view he has now, he appreciates DC for what it is, but has actually become a cheerleader for MI and will most likely move back primarily due to the cost of living in DC. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 830
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
True fact there, we have to promote our benefits: lots of water access, inexpensive to live here, plenty of higher ed institutions, pretty good hospitals, very good public water in the metro, a big-time major airport, all the pro and college sports you could ever want. We certainly could do a better job promoting that. The fact is, though, we are dying in the 18 to 34 demographic. Granted, that's a statistic. There are still lots of 20-somethings living around here, just not as many as there ought to be (in otherwords, a smaller than normal percentage of the total). |
Wsugradguy
Member
Username: Wsugradguy
Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 11:53 am: | |
Some people on here tend to forget that not everyone who has left Michigan is a Michigan-Hater or Everywhere Else-lover. Some people leave simply because they DON'T want to live in their mother's basement and would like to provide for themselves. This cannot happen without a decent job. I love Michigan, and I love my family, and had no intentions on leaving, but I was offered a job on the East Coast. I had a choice between Pfizer in Ann Arbor and the company I ultimately chose in Jersey. Lucky for me I chose Jersey, Pfizer is closing their Ann Arbor plant and I would be looking for a job right now. I realize that this is just one case-scenario, but I don't doubt that its a common one. I think economics plays a much bigger role in these decisions than people are willing to admit. By the way, I know lots of people who have left, and none who have returned unless they lost their job elsewhere and had to live at home for a bit. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1742
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 11:56 am: | |
^Johnson&Johnson? |
Wsugradguy
Member
Username: Wsugradguy
Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:00 pm: | |
Nope, Schering-Plough. |
Higgs1634
Member
Username: Higgs1634
Post Number: 194
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:04 pm: | |
Michigan. The "safety" State. If you can't make it anywhere else, settle for "at least it's cheap to live here".
j/k. |
Smitch
Member
Username: Smitch
Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:28 pm: | |
Not claiming to be a spokesperson for the 18-24 demographic but i have had this conversation on several occasions with several friends all of whom are in college or college graduates and this list pretty much sums up why it sucks to live in Michigan (in no particular order).
1. ECONOMY- Try being a recent college grad and finding a job in Michigan. Good Luck!
2. DIVERSITY- No need to expound here.
3. LACK OF MASS TRANSIT- You must have a car to get anywhere here and the bus system is a joke.
4. COST OF LIVING- Housing may cost more on the east or west coasts, but in cities like Chicago, NYC, LA, DC, YOU DONT NEED A CAR. Thats a BIG monthly saving when you look at loan payments, insurance, maintenance, etc. And lets not forget that alot of the braindrain is going south, where the cost of living is EVEN LOWER.
Until these things turn around, Michigan will never be somewhere where any young, college educated person would aspire to live. |
Wsugradguy
Member
Username: Wsugradguy
Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:31 pm: | |
I think that list is pretty accurate. |
Dannaroo
Member
Username: Dannaroo
Post Number: 164
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:49 pm: | |
Professor Scott,
You talk about our low cost of living ("inexpensive to live here") but one major problem I always have with looking at traditional cost of living indexes is that if they do account for local or state taxes (most indexes don't seem to look at this) the NEVER talk about what services your government actually provides for these taxes.
I am going to take a look and try to find the report, but I remember seeing somewhere that even with the low cost of housing in the Detroit MSA, if you factor in services provided, this area turns out to be one of the most expensive places to live (I think the Naples, FL area was first and Detroit was second). |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 832
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:55 pm: | |
Dannaroo,
That'd be interesting to see, if you can find it.
Smitch,
You do not "have to have a car to get anywhere". There are approximately 300,000 people in the Detroit MSA, last I checked, who do not have access to a car. It's not impossible to get around by bus, but it's not easy either. You have to live near a bus line, work and do all your shopping, church-going and other trips on the bus line, and you have to have a great deal of patience and forbearance.
I use the bus system whenever I can. It's not as bad as people seem to think. The biggest issue I have is that the schedules are too "thin". Waiting 30 or 45 or 60 minute for a bus really sucks, and if you miss a transfer by a few minutes you are (in many cases) in a big pile of hurt. |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 261
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 1:01 pm: | |
1. Yes, it's tougher, but it's not impossible. Too many people choose their degrees without seriously considering whether it will find them a job. Too many people also think that simply having a degree entitles them to a job. Did they take the necessary steps (internships, other experience) to set themselves apart? Are they genuinely interested in a career, or did they study hard just to get that 4.0? It's easy to say you have to move elsewhere if you are looking for an entry-level job. In a search spread out over 50 states, even in an ideal economy, Michigan might only have a 1 in 50 (2%) chance of landing you that job.
2. I disagree with this one, if considering Metro Detroit, but perhaps not the state as a whole. We have a LOT of diversity - it just tends to be centralized to communities. Look at the Arab population in Dearborn, for example. Where in this country is there a diverse region where people of all races and religions hold hands in perfect harmony? It stands out in Metro Detroit simply because we have larger than average minority populations.
3. I think this is an important issue for some, but it's gotta be pretty far down the list. Many people are moving to communities that are no better than we are when it comes to transit.
4. This is a valid point, but only if you believe that most people want to live completely without a car. I'd gladly take a train/bus/plane to work, but I'd still want a car for weekend trips. Mass transit isn't free, of course. Cars can be cheap if you don't insist on leasing a new one every two years.
Your final statement is a broad generalization, disproven easily as I (and many others) fit the qualifications, and yet continue to live here. |
Wsugradguy
Member
Username: Wsugradguy
Post Number: 38
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 1:05 pm: | |
Although it's true that you "don't have to have a car," you are greatly disadvantaged if you don't. Sure you can take the bus, but as you said professorscott, living away from a bus line exponentially increases the difficulty of catching the bus, and to miss the bus, hah, you might as well have stayed home. The importance of mass transit cannot be ignored. Although its not a necessity, it greatly adds to an areas ability to draw a certain demographic of people. |
Smitch
Member
Username: Smitch
Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 1:09 pm: | |
Professorscott,
That may work for you, but it does not work for most people. And im sure that a good chunk of those 300,000 people dont have jobs.
And as you said, you have to devote an extra 1hr to 2hrs to make a trip ANYWHERE. And dont miss the bus trying to get to work in the morning! And what if you live or work in the suburbs? Canton, Novi or Wixom or any other suburb without bus service? Your screwed.
I am not saying that mass transit is THE answer. It is only one of several reasons why some people chose to leave. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 451
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 1:23 pm: | |
When people move away it's a decision they made for the presumed better. Even though they may have been advised otherwise, they moved. The last thing they want to do is move back and admit they were wrong.
Just the heat alone in the south for instance is a huge negative that many fail to mention in conversation. They are quick to tell you how low their heating bills are, but develop memory loss when air conditioning gets brought up. They also fail to mention how the inside of their car is 130 degrees inside when they want to go somewhere and if not careful it will actually burn exposed flesh. They also conveniently leave out the insect problems due to mild winters. Most die out here. They keep right on reproducing in warmer climates. Complete with Black widow and fiddler or brown recluse spiders. Both very poisonous. Ever hear of "Earwigs"? they got those too.
From the wiki re: earwigs
"Nevertheless, being exploratory and omnivorous, earwigs probably do crawl into the human ear; even if they are only looking for a humid crevice in which to hide, such behavior provides a memorable basis for the name.[3]"
I know someone who woke up with one in their ear and had to go to the ER and have it removed.
In a lot of areas of the south there are very few small game like rabbits etc. Fleas kill most of them when born. Have pets outside, they're guaranteed to get them.
And don't leave out the beloved Tics and Chiggers. The former a known carrier and distributor of lime disease. Oh and did I mention poisonous snakes? We don't have any here. And Poison oak, some areas of the south are over-run with it.
We've had a very nice summer here and the fall is shaping up to be one to remember. Very enjoyable weather-wise. I'll take 80 over 100 any day of the week. |
Smitch
Member
Username: Smitch
Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 1:49 pm: | |
Wootzy-
1. Of all the points to disagree, the economy? I know plenty of my college friends, who searched for MONTHS in Michigan for a job, couldnt find anything, moved away and immediately found jobs in thier fields.
2. According to the US Census, Michigan is the most segregated state in the union. You only need to look around to see that.
3. As i pointed out before, Mass Transit is only a piece of the puzzle, I never once said that it was the solution.
Glad your happy here. I am sure a lot of people are. Not every young person WANTS to leave, but the people who do, probably do it for one or a combination of the 4 reasons above. |
Smitch
Member
Username: Smitch
Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 1:57 pm: | |
I should also add, that there are also people who leave just because they want to get away from thier parents, or following thier b/f or g/f who just got a new job, or move to NYC or LA to pursue a career in film or music, or any other variety of reasons.
The list is not all inclusive, just sharing my views and what I hear alot from my peers who did move away. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 84
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 2:06 pm: | |
I'd concur with Smitch's thoughts and list. I'd also add one more:
5. Employers who always will do what they've always done because that's the way it's always been done since they've been doing what they've been doing. (In other words, the idea that innovation and change = bad). |
Wsugradguy
Member
Username: Wsugradguy
Post Number: 39
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 3:32 pm: | |
Just to piggy-back on one of Smitch's points. Michigan definitely lacks diversity. There may be many different ethnic groups, but in general, they don't mix too much. In my building in New Jersey, just the other day I was on the elevator and three separate languages were being spoken, if you include my English, that's four different languages on one little elevator. All living in the same building. Perhaps Metro New York is an anomaly in that sense, but to me, that is true diversity. Sure, there's ethnic separation, but I've never seen more mixing than I have in this area. |
Mrsjdaniels
Member
Username: Mrsjdaniels
Post Number: 274
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 3:36 pm: | |
---stepping on soapbox---
I was born and raised in Detroit. Lived here all of my life except for college in RI. before I left, i tried to talk a friend and his family into moving to Detroit with what I perceived to be the promise of the future of the D.
But now, I am trying to leave. I love my parents, my nieces and nephews (all 8 of them) and my in-laws in GRap...but I will be honest, it is time for us to leave...why?
1.
quality of life - I have a great job but I am not making equitable pay for the work that I do. Why? I have a masters and the credentials, the associations and professional contacts but something isn't clicking here for me.
I want to make more money and spend less. This is key.
2. branching out - I've spent time in RI, South Carolina and Miami and I can say that FOR MY PERSONALITY, there are other cities that I have things in common with...does that make sense?
3. change of pace - can you believe that I am tired of the hustle and bustle - go figure. I am ready top slow down and live differently.
Now I will miss Detroit with all of me but its time for me to go. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4178
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 8:47 pm: | |
Lack of diversity is a relative nonissue when it comes to Michigan's youth leaving the state. You can come up with any number of minor issues, but the only one that matters is that Michigan is losing more and more of its jobs yearly to the tune of about 100,000 or more a year. If those out of work have more skills than those just out of college--more than likely, just where are the bulk of those young adults going to work?
And mass transit is another nonissue because if jobs were there for most sensible jobseekers, they'd see to it that they got there--regardless of location. If they didn't have a car, there are plenty available for only a very few hundred dollars if one buys cars at the several auto auctions weekly in Metro Detroit. Not having wheels is no real excuse either.
Most of what I've experienced on this thread are weak excuses trying to talk away the simple fact that in Michigan there are fewer and fewer jobs, AND it's already at a critical point. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4867
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 1:14 am: | |
Elect a fiscally conservative state government friendly/supportive/and advocating for local business for a start. We have the opposite of that, and we elected them/her. Who's fault is it then? Learn the bitter lesson for next time. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 459
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 1:57 am: | |
Quote: "Elect a fiscally conservative state government friendly/supportive/and advocating for local business for a start."
Agreed. This state is sorely lacking leadership. We have people here from other states roaming the cities soliciting businesses with incentive packages to move. Do we have any sort of effort going elsewhere? And how would we entice any business to move here? Raising taxes isn't an incentive. |
Reddog289
Member
Username: Reddog289
Post Number: 18
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 2:30 am: | |
don,t think my[daughter] will leave the state, due to the fact of bugs. good thing she don,t read this. her and her boyfriend are both unemployed, i thought things were bad when i was there age. if it was like this when i was 19 or so i,d talk to uncle sam or move outta here. which if i lose my job it might just happen. |
Wsugradguy
Member
Username: Wsugradguy
Post Number: 40
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 9:57 am: | |
Livernoisyard,
I'm not sure if anyone said that either lack of diversity or public transportation were the SOLE reason young people are leaving the state. Of course they aren't. This state has always been segregated, and metro detroit has, for the most part, never had major mass transit, but young people were not always leaving the state. I think its simply been stated that these are contributing factors, and things that people think about when considering where to live. I think its been stated more than once on this thread that economic issues, which job availability falls under, play quite a large role if not the largest. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4182
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 10:29 am: | |
The major way of keeping young adults in Michigan (or out of their mothers' basements) is their being gainfully employed.
Two very obvious events are happening simultaneously: (1) some 100,000+ net jobs are lost in Michigan annually and (2) more young adults are added each and every year to the number of other adults who have lost their jobs in the current year and those still unemployed from the previous years.
Any other factors have such a minor effect relative to the lack of sufficient available jobs in the state that it's ridiculous to even consider them. Those minor issues might determine where in the state they choose to live. Without jobs, they emigrate out of Michigan much like economic refugees. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 91
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 10:39 am: | |
LY,
There are jobs in Detroit, albeit, not quite enough of them. However, jobs alone are not sufficient. I know many people who are in their late 20's and early 30's who are planning on leaving because they can't stand working for the Company. Soul-crushing positions aren't helping us. They lead to people leaving the state. People also need a sense of fulfillment and purpose. |
Wsugradguy
Member
Username: Wsugradguy
Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 10:41 am: | |
LY,
I'm not quite sure if we're arguing. Or maybe your post isn't even directed at me. But it sounds to me like we're saying the same thing. Economy is key, you're preaching to the choir. However, I don't think its "ridiculous" to consider other factors just because they are not the majority contributor to the efflux of young adults. One must take all factors into consideration when trying to both identify, and solve a problem.
(Message edited by wsugradguy on October 04, 2007) |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4183
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 11:45 am: | |
Providing jobs is a necessary key. Without them, it's a total waste of time and effort to consider any other factors. There are only a few available jobs, period. Hopefully, when the oldest Boomers retire within the next few years, the jobs situation may improve a bit.
There are virtually no jobs being unfilled for long anywhere except for some specialized positions or in areas where there always has been jobs, such as nursing, etc. For those out of high school, it's got to be terribly bleak, except for some minor seasonal work. And a majority of college grads take coursework that has little bearing on getting hired afterwards. There have been dozens of recent reports or articles about this point.
A bit OT: The major problem with supplying nurses, for example, is directly attributable to the insufficient number of nursing schools. |
Penelopetheduck
Member
Username: Penelopetheduck
Post Number: 18
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 1:46 pm: | |
I've known a handful of people 18-24 (but more on the 24 side of things) who had to leave michigan because they couldn't find work in their field and I think certainly the lousy economy is a big reason people leave. A close friend of mine is totally heartbroken about having to move to Miami but wasn't able to find an apprenticeship here.
But, man, as for 18-24 who are just chomping at the bit to get out of michigan because they don't like it: fuck 'em. Michigan is full of people who stay because they love it here and are dedicated to making things better, we don't need a bunch of dead weight, whiny 20-somethings.
(unless we get that tax on pissing and the one on moaning) |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2930
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 1:59 pm: | |
"There are virtually no jobs being unfilled for long anywhere except for some specialized positions or in areas where there always has been jobs"
I have a job opening, and after interviewing a number of prospects, only one has stood out as being even a possibility. Here's a tip to college graduates: degrees don't mean everything, especially in my field. Spell check your damn resume. Make it look nice. Don't put a bunch of bullcrap on it like your hobbies and your pet's name. And for design, the portfolio is everything. I don't care why you made something, or what you were thinking about, only your teachers care about that crap. Graduating from CCS doesn't make you a good designer. Someone from community college with a better portfolio will get the job before you. You want a job, then work hard for it. Carpet bombing monster.com with your resume is not job hunting. Many employers get so many resumes sent to them from monster they don't even bother reading them, and chalk it up as a mistake they won't make again. Put forth an effort, and show why you are better than the competition. If employers seem to be looking for skills you didn't learn in school, I suggest you learn them on your own time.
Sorry, personal rant. |
Penelopetheduck
Member
Username: Penelopetheduck
Post Number: 19
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 05, 2007 - 11:39 am: | |
I have to say that I have had a similar experience, JohnLodge. Obviously, it depends on the field but in my organization we spent all of last year looking for someone to fill a job that was specifically for recent college graduates or college students. It is a part-time, 12$ an hour job with incredibly broad and flexible requirements as far as experience and degree.
We never did hire anyone for last school year and only just barely managed to find people for this school year.
Are college grad just pickier these days? I was hired for the same job 1 year out of college with an English degree. Are there English Major now that expect to be making $50K a year right out of college? what are they smoking? |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 141
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 05, 2007 - 12:03 pm: | |
Just want to let everyone know that Brogan and Partners - the folks that conducted the survey - are not in the survey/polling business.
They have not the personnel, experience or aptitude to conduct a truly accurate survey of anything.
They aren't Epic-Mri or Public Sector Consultants who actually take a scientific approach to polling.
Brogan & Partners is a tiny ad agency in Birmingham that does a little work here and there for a variety of clients. Graphic design, radio/tv, event marketing, public affairs, etc. For years and years, Marci Brogan has riden the "minority" (because she is a woman) bidder train in Lansing and has poached a lot of Public Service Annoucements because of her minority status.
The fear in the narrow hallways of their shop, is that the State feedbag is coming to an end; hence, they created this "survey" to get a State grant to stem the tide of the youth exodus.
In short, don't believe anything Brogan and Partners present, especially a survey. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 97
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 05, 2007 - 12:50 pm: | |
Penelope,
Honestly, $12.00 an hour part-time isn't in the range for a college grad, even with a Philosophy major. Most grads can move and obtain a better paying job than that. Did you emphasize that the job could lead to a potential permanent position? Was it part-time in a manner that allowed a college grad to work another full time job?
Advertising a job and expecting qualified people to flock to it is a mistake most business people make. You have to know what type of person you can attract based on what you have to offer as an employer. College grads are not saddled with a mortgage but they do have educational loans to repay. Educational loans transfer with them, mortgages do not, which makes it infinitely easier for them to move out of state to a job that pays $14/hour for 40 hours a week. Which would you choose?
It reminds me of an attorney I knew who couldn't understand why he couldn't find a qualified person to bring on as an associate. I asked him how much the starting pay was. His answer was about $30,000. I asked him how much he expected them to work in a week. His answer was 50 to 60 or more hours. Frankly, I'm not surprised he couldn't find anyone at that pay. You make more managing a McDonalds and have a higher likelihood of advancement.
As for what college grads are expecting to make, I'd lay odds that any of them with transferrable skills need to make more than $30,000 a year. Tuition repayment costs alone require it. |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1630
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:58 am: | |
Young people like to get out, at least a good number of them do. So that MI number should be compared with other states' to get a better understanding.
But beyond that, don't act like it isn't a problem or that it isn't much worse. Almost every person I know who went to college with me in the bay area is still there. They don't want to leave. I know a few folks from Detroit who went to school out there. They are still living in San Francisco for the past 7 years. They have said they're never going back.
I'm now in Chicago. Was over with some friends a few weeks back. All kids from the Detroit area. A couple said they might go back. A few others said they're never going back.
I suspect most of us (not there yet myself), tend to wander and see whats out there when we're young, but there comes a point where you find "home" and you tend to stay there without a whole lot of moving later in life. If, say, you end up in Chicago when you're young, I would suspect chances are pretty good you're gonna 1) end up meeting and marrying somebody who is also from Chicago, and 2) buying a home and having a family somewhere in Chicago. I would think the same would go for Detroit. Problem is if everyone leaves when they're young, they're not going to be around to get married and have the families later. That affects everything. They took their minds, their drive, and their money elsewhere.
It is a big deal. And that point about being lost/behind for a generation I think is highly accurate. Once you're gone at that age, even if you think you might someday want to go back, its likely a bunch of other circumstances are going to prevent you from doing it. |
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