 
Penelopetheduck
Member
Username: Penelopetheduck
Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 10:56 am: |    |
I wonder if the consistent shortage of science and math teachers isn't related to one of the major failures of the American university system: the tendency to segregate the sciences and the humanities.
As an English major, I was not required to take anything more than one or two watered-down science classes. At many universities, Physics or Math majors aren't required to take anything more than freshman comp.
Good teachers of math or science also need to have a serious background in the humanities. They need to be able to communicate clearly, especially with people who may not have the innate love for/ability with math. People who are good at math but not good at verbal/written communication are taught from a young age that they are either the elite geniuses who shouldn't have to deign to speak with the rest of us or are idiot savants, utterly stupid except for their one gift.
There are too many would-be English teachers and too few would-be math teachers. The solution could be to push more English/Education majors to persue minors in the hard sciences and more Math/Physics/Chemistry majors to persue education certificates or minors in the humanities.
I may not have gone to the most elite college, it was pretty good at doing just that. All majors had to write papers and lengthy senior theses; to the point where the administration would brag that a math major there did more writing than an English major at a state college. They also tried (with less success) to demystify the hard sciences for humanities people. I knew a fair number of History majors with physics minor or something similar. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 352
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 11:27 am: | |
Good point, Penelope. I think we need a more holistic approach and agree that there's a *track* system for math/sciences too. ALL college
students should be held to the same rigorous standard. |
Eec
Member
Username: Eec
Post Number: 136
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 12:59 pm: | |
ProfessorScott said:
_____
1. Our K-12 system is mediocre, at best, compared to the rest of the industrialized world.
2. Our University system is top-notch compared to the rest of the industrialized world.
If you can give me evidence that any of my facts are wrong, or if you can find any reason for these facts other than the obvious, let me know. Otherwise people are just ranting IMVHO. Or they think something about their own job security is more important than the fate of our young people, which is horrifying.
_____
By "the obvious" do you mean the fact that K-12 schools have to teach EVERYBODY, while universities have the built-in sorting system of only teaching those who are motivated enough to enroll, spending their own money (or talented enough to qualify for scholarships)? Furthermore, by "the obvious," do you mean the fact that many of the K-12 equivalents in other countries aren't nearly as inclusive as ours, leading to a situation in which we're comparing ALL of our students to only the elite in their system?
When I was working on my Master's, I had some classes with a girl from Nigeria. She was smart. I got to talking to her about the schools where she came from. Only the smartest (or, admittedly, richest) kids got to go to school at all, and they were beaten for wrong answers. Not quite an apples-to-apples comparison. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 353
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 1:20 pm: | |
Eec,
Apparently, the Prof is on sabbatical. 
Yes, I've only provided anecdotes and comparison issues; I'm still waiting for him to offer research that supports his generalizations. |
Eec
Member
Username: Eec
Post Number: 137
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 1:30 pm: | |
Whether he can back it up or not (and let's be honest, if you've managed to get at least one college degree, you can probably make research back up ANYTHING), he's right that many people have that perception. And it leads many people to look down on K-12 teachers, though profs seem to take their hits too (often for being opinionated and arrogant, which is funny in context of this discussion). I just think the problem is more with the ways the different systems are set up. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 744
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 1:36 pm: | |
This is really simple: our K-12 system is mediocre compared to other industrialized countries and our University system is considered world-class compared to that same group of countries.
I don't know of any country in that group where K-12 education is optional or University education is mandatory. So every country is in the same position: they all have to educate every child, but most do a better job than us. Nobody is required to educate every young adult, and we do a better job than most.
Try again. I'm comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges; I'm not comparing apples to oranges. I could be wrong, but not because of that.
I take short sabbaticals |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 745
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 1:40 pm: | |
One other: I get paid to do research; this stuff here is freebie (and not worth much more than that). If you really would like for me to grab any of the thousands of papers that have been published, both in journals and in Newsweek type places as popular articles, and write a consolidated report showing that our K-12 system doesn't produce as good a quality of result as most of our peer nations, or that there is ample evidence that the rest of the industrialized world considers our University system to be top notch, I'd be happy to do that, but for money.
Eec is right about another thing, though; we all need to read research results skeptically. I can find scholarly papers that state categorically that global warming isn't occurring, and I can find them (and quite a few more of them) that say it is. You can produce nearly any result if you set out to.
Nigeria, by the way, is not a fair country for comparison. It is not what we used to call a first-world country. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 354
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 2:04 pm: | |
Thanks, I know what research *bias* is; I have a post-graduate degree. However, I think when generalizations are made, you should be able to provide a few summary stats to support your claims or a citation to a literature review.
What countries, Professorscott, would you use for comparison? We are vastly different from China, yet we compare to them- they still treat their women as chattel. I don't know that economics should be the primary commonality. Just wondering... |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 746
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 2:37 pm: | |
Oak, I'm primarily thinking about western Europe, Canada and the Pacific Rim nations, the long-capitalist ones. I suspect you can choose your countries for the comparison by choosing those that spend at least $x per child per year for public education, that would eliminate very poor countries for starters.
When you look at countries ranked by performance at the K-12 level, which usually means they are looking at high schools, we tend to score near the bottom of the top part of the list, if you get what I mean by that.
Also, I don't bother to cite when I'm blogging. That starts to look too much like actual work. If I had a spare graduate assistant I would put him or her on this, but I don't right now. I think most of us have read the summary versions of this kind of thing that pop up in the newsweeklies every three or four years. |
Eec
Member
Username: Eec
Post Number: 138
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 3:48 pm: | |
So, in other words, you're talking mostly about lots of countries that tend to heavily segregate their students by ability, rather than providing everyone with the same opportunities, as the US at least tries harder to do. In other words, an apples-to-oranges comparison.
You could argue that their system is more efficient, and I wouldn't argue with you. Ours, simply by trying not to be exclusionary, is less efficient. However, we might argue that simply trying to give everyone the same opportunity is a noble and democratic goal, and we'd certainly have to admit that, given the structural differences between the systems we're comparing, the problems that might exist in American schools are more likely to be due to those differences than in the relative worth of K-12 and University-level teachers. All told, I've seen more lacklustre professors than K-12 teachers.
The Nigeria example was just brought up to illustrate a different system that produced (from what I could see in one example) superior results, but was too different to be reasonably compared. Much like the comparisons you're making. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 748
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 4:07 pm: | |
Eec,
We used to give everybody the same opportunity and provide an excellent education, but we no longer do. If you look at what somebody had to know in order to get a high school diploma in 1925, and compare that to what a typical graduate knows today, you'd be astonished. We were not being exclusionary then. As it is, many public school districts in the U. S. put students on one of several "tracks", so we are partly exclusionary ourselves.
Nobody has yet made any statement in this thread related to how we could do better. I made the claim "we aren't very good", and all I get is frontal attacks on my position. It won't work; I'm still here, and still repeat the claim. How can we do better? |
Eec
Member
Username: Eec
Post Number: 139
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 4:34 pm: | |
I'm already astonished by how much graduates don't know. What I'm saying is that their lack stems from a systemic difference. Our education system in 1925, like most of Europe's systems now, tracked kids heavily and excluded many kids from the regular classroom. Including those kids has put a strain on our system that isn't put on the ones with which you're unfavorably comparing ours.
How many autistic children were in a regular-ed classroom in 1925? Even when I was in school, we had college prep and general curricula. That sort of thing has been dying out for years, and the state has just mandated that we're going to make every kid in Michigan do the "college prep" curriculum. Which either means that failure rates will skyrocket or standards will be lowered. Like to guess which?
It should be clear how we could do better. We could go back to the exclusionary way we used to do things, which more closely resembled the systems you're trying to compare ours to, or we could actually fund the system we have, even though it'd be more expensive. As it is, we're trying to spend the money we'd pay for the (more efficient) exclusionary system and get the (less efficient, but more touchy-feely) more democratic system. Either way, the problem we have to fix isn't that the K-12 teachers are required to be certified in teaching as well as knowledgeable in their subject matter. Although one problem we haven't mentioned, that of the college profs who can't teach a lick, could be fixed by requiring the same thing of college teachers.
(Message edited by eec on September 13, 2007) |
Yvette248
Member
Username: Yvette248
Post Number: 931
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 4:48 pm: | |
ProfessorScott, I will support you on this one issue: Our children are NOT cookie cutters. They don't all learn the same way, nor have the same level of intelligence. It's absolutely ridiculous to teach them as if their are robotic clones. Therefore I would support a 3-track system: Remedial, Regular and Advanced track. In New York, I attended "Regents" level classes which were more advanced. I hated it though because all my friends were in the "regular" level class, but I got a better education.
One caveat though, remedial should not mean SUBSTANDARD. Just because children learn at a slower pace does not mean they should be subjected to lesser facilities or less-qualified teachers. It just means they won't be forced to take advanced level classes that they don't understand. I'd rather learn a few things very well, than just a little bit about a lot. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 749
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 5:10 pm: | |
Thanks Yvette. I have a Regents diploma from the great state of Noo Yawk my own self. I agree with both your main point and the caveat.
As it is now, we're not doing a very good job serving anybody. Universities are doing a land-office business reteaching 9th grade math to 18 year olds - and these are the ones who chose to go to college, and ought to have been on the "college track" if there is any such thing.
They don't get college credit for that class, by the way, and they pay full college tuition for it. A typical big University has several hundred freshmen in that class, right now as I type. |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 118
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 5:36 pm: | |
The real problem in public education comes from the disparity between individual school districts. In Michigan, we have a slightly-above-average graduation rate when compared to the U.S., for instance-- roughly 74 percent. When you look at poorer districts, including Detroit, you'll find graduation rates that fall to the 50 percent range, while in richer districts, the graduation rate is nearly 100%. Northville, for instance, has a <1% dropout rate. The famous Sandia Labs report on international test results found that our richest districts perform as well or better than other countries' systems-- they are among the elite of the world. Rather than condemn all public education in the U.S. as substandard, we should look at the practices that make some schools perform well and help the poorer districts change what they do. |
Yvette248
Member
Username: Yvette248
Post Number: 934
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 5:37 pm: | |
Ergo the 5-year bachelors degree. The first year is spent teaching kids stuff they should have learned in high school!
And..... for the race baiters on this forum, its not just DPS students that are deficient. Almost all of the instructors I know absolutely despise teaching freshmen classes. Mostly because they are lazy, undisciplined, and don't follow instructions. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 356
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 6:16 pm: | |
Prof,
Eec is spot on; in K-12, we have to educate everyone by law (including kids with moderate to severe impairments), while you have a bit more of a similar grouping.
I'll concede we need to make systemic changes in K-12 education. Yes, there has been a general "dumbing down" of content, but that can be said of our universities as well: do they require logic, rhetoric, Greek, or Latin anymore?
In an earlier post, I addressed some of the complex variables involved which I believe to be part of the solution. You still haven't offered any yourself; to suggest I look at Newsweek after warning us of research bias? Laughable.
As for tracking, I don't believe it does any good other than damage a child's self-esteem. Why not require a rigorous senior year test like France's baccalaureate; it determines if one is really suited to further studies. Not everyone needs to or ought to be in college.
Finally, how can our universities be top notch if they're allowing in several hundred students each year who require remedial maths? I see that as enabling an already weak K-12 system; maybe if universities upped the bar a little things might have a trickle down effect? No, instead, they're taking the money...that makes our higher ed system cream of the crop? How? |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 3779
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 6:58 pm: | |
Earlier, someone responded that many prospective teachers don't want to teach primary math and science, hence the shortage. At a time when teaching jobs are scarce, when there is a niche that is in need, I would think the void would rapidly get filled. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3937
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 7:54 pm: | |
quote:Eec is spot on; in K-12, we have to educate everyone by law (including kids with moderate to severe impairments), while you have a bit more of a similar grouping.
Educate them, no; school them, yes, in a way. Today's K-12 school systems are more like day-care centers than academic institutions.
If the US K-12 systems are so hot, then how come that whenever the US kids are pitted against their counterparts in the two dozen major developed countries, they almost always score second or third from the bottom?
A typical US high school graduate needs up to two years of remedial (high-school level) courses before being allowed to take courses for credit at colleges other than the fourth-tier schools like WSU. The colleges love it because they can charge confiscatory tuition for a year or two to those kids' parents. All that extra money helps only the colleges...
And grades in high school and most colleges don't mean shit anymore. Back during the mid 1960s, the mean overall GPA of electrical engineering grads at UW-Madison was somewhere between 2.1 and 2.2. Now, it's around 3.5. Mind you that the raw scores for the older, yet meaningful SAT test peaked in 1962 and those kids would have graduated back in 1966--the time in question here.
So the best kids forty years ago could only muster, on average, a GPA of 2.2. This is after the typical freshman attrition rate in engineering back then of well over 50%. But kids back then whose raw SAT scores were the highest ever have overall GPAs barely above a C? Yet, that was how the US academic world turned forty years ago--definitely not like today's.
Kids today typically get undeservedly high grades for doing squat while both in high school and college. The lowering of standards actually began at the colleges and trickled down to the high schools and lower grades.
In a response to retain academically unprepared college freshman from dropping out during the late 1960s--the nascent days for affirmative action-- the GPAs kept creeping up because of the pressure on the colleges by the state and federal governments to keep AA kids from dropping out due to the stiff academic standards in force back then. If the grades for the worst students had to be raised, obviously the grades for the rest had to be significantly raised also.
This was also the time where high schools had so many kids with 4.0 averages that they went to a peak grade system of 4.5 or even 5--in effect "bonus points" for performing about the same of what a grade of A (4.0) was only a few years earlier. Many high schools got rid of the valedictorian system altogether because instead of one or, possibly, two valedictorians--there might be dozens of them just a few years later, after the grading standards were essentially abolished...
Today, only the prestige and magnet colleges enforce any semblance of academic standards in grading and admissions. The rest of them comprise educational backwaters in those criteria today. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 358
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 8:32 pm: | |
"while in richer districts, the graduation rate is nearly 100%. Northville, for instance, has a <1% dropout rate"
Parkguy, I think this reflects parental involvement. However, as someone who teaches in an affluent area, I notice that overly involved, or *helicopter parents* (they hover) can cause problems for children, and I feel, they are directly responsible for grade inflation.
LY, Your assumptions and "stats" are getting really tiresome. Are you pulling numbers from thin air? Please, here's something for you to read:
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/resul ts03_eighth95.asp
Truth is, we're 14th and 8th math/science respectively out of 36 countries.
Ccb,
I don't know which post you refer to, but based on my 6 years in K-12 ed. there is no real shortage of teachers with any specialty locally. Check the Southfield web site, no such jobs are posted. I find that "article" dubious; don't believe everything you see in the paper. Finally, kids have been known to fabricate stories to get teachers in hot water. Why would Southfield schools want a negative quote by a student in the paper? |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 3781
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 8:52 pm: | |
Thanks Oakmangirl...that would explain why this whole concept wasn't making any sense earlier. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3941
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 10:45 pm: | |
Funny... There's no shortage of critics of US dumbed-down K-12 education. Are they pulling these critiques out of the air also?
Here's just one. [I have a helluva lot more, just in case this one doesn't suffice. Charles Sykes--a former ultra-liberal (who now knows right from wrong) and Wisconsin's most popular talk-show host in Milwaukee has written several best-selling books on this over the past couple decades.]
(International Test Scores--Poor U.S. Test Results Tied To Weak Curriculum)quote:International Test Scores
Poor U.S. Test Results
Tied To Weak Curriculum
Most of the following was excerpted from a speech by Pascal D. Forgione, Jr., Ph.D. U.S. Commissioner of Education Statistics. As a government researcher, he tries to put the best possible spin on the academic failure of American schools, but this is no sugar-coated report.
This is no sugar-coated report
Math and science offer the only common basis for comparing American schools to the rest of the world. Other subjects vary from one country to another. Results of the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) involving a half-million students in 41 countries are authoritative. Oversight groups included not only the world's leading experts on comparative studies of education systems, but also experts in assessment design and statistical analysis.
Comparisons are Fair: Traditionally, the most common criticism of international studies is that it is unfair to compare our results to other countries because their national scores are based on a highly selective population. While this may have been true in the past, it is simply not valid in the case of TIMSS. Using several different methods of measuring enrollment, the data indicate that the enrollment rate in the United States is closer to the international average than to the desirable upper extreme. Even the theory that higher secondary enrollment rates hurt a country's overall achievement did not hold true. Students in countries with higher enrollment rates tended to score significantly higher on both the math and science general knowledge assessments. Higher secondary enrollment rates are associated with higher levels of performance, rather than the reverse. The range of scores, from high to low, is no greater in the United States than in the higher-scoring countries.
Participants: This study included primarily the industrialized countries of Europe but also the United States, Canada, New Zealand and Asia. So-called third world countries that have a higher literacy rate than the U.S., like Costa Rica, and others that contribute a significant number of U.S. advance degreed immigrants, like India , were not part of this study; therefore, the results in terms of world competition are worse than portrayed in these charts.
Results: In short, the tests showed U.S. fourth-graders performing poorly, middle school students worse, and high school students are unable to compete. By the same criteria used to say we were "average" in elementary school, "we appear to be "near the bottom" at the high school level. People have a tendency to think this picture is bleak but it doesn't apply to their own school. Chances are, even if your school compares well in SAT scores, it will still be a lightweight on an international scale.
1. By the time our students are ready to leave high school - ready to enter higher education and the labor force - they are doing so badly with science they are significantly weaker than their peers in other countries.
2. Our idea of "advanced" is clearly below international standards.
3. There appears to be a consistent weakness in our teaching performance in physical sciences that becomes magnified over the years.
Causes for Failure: One would think that with our vastly superior resources and the level of education spending which far exceeds these competitors we would outperform nearly everyone - not so. Dr. Schmidt, who oversees the research effort into the TIMSS results, says the actual cause for the failures appears to be weak math and science curricula in U.S. middle schools.
A more insightful explanation was once proffered by Jean McLaughlin, president of Barry University who said "The public schools lack focus; instead of concentrating on education, they dabble in social re-engineering". That assessment was confirmed by the superintendent of the country's fourth largest school district in Miami-Dade, Florida who said "Half our job is education, and the other half is social work".
Downward sloping performance confirms John Taylor Gatto's thesis in his book Dumbing Us Down and his speeches which charge compulsory government education with deliberately producing robots instead of adults who are the best they can be.
Curricula: The biggest deficits are found at the middle school level. In middle school, most countries shift curricula from basic arithmetic and elementary science in the direction of chemistry, physics, algebra and geometry. Even poor countries generally teach a half-year of algebra and a half-year of geometry to every eighth-grader.
In U.S. middle schools, however, most students continue to review arithmetic. And they are more likely to study earth science and life science than physics or chemistry.
Textbooks U.S. textbooks treat topics with a "mile-wide, inch-deep" approach, Schmidt said. A typical U.S. eighth-grade math textbook deals with about 35 topics. By comparison, a Japanese or German math textbook for that age would have only five or six topics. Comparisons done elsewhere between French and American math books show more innovative approaches to finding, for instance, the volume of a pyramid. Fractions don't lend themselves to computerization, so they're relegated to an importance slightly above Roman numerals. Calculators are here to stay, so kids breeze through long division. They concentrate on how to use math rather than how to do math, and with less entanglement in social philosophy.
American Education Not World Class
The schools systematically let kids down. By grade 4, American students only score in the middle of 26 countries reported. By grade 8 they are in the bottom third, and at the finish line, where it really counts, we're near dead last. Its even worse when you notice that some of the superior countries in grade 8 (especially the Asians) were not included in published 12th grade results.
Math
Grade 4
Rank Nation Score
1. Singapore 625
2. Korea 611
3. Japan 597
4. Hong Kong 587
5. Netherlands 577
6. Czech Republic 567
7. Austria 559
8. Slovenia 552
9. Ireland 550
10. Hungary 548
11. Australia 546
12. United States 545
13. Canada 532
14. Israel 531
15. Latvia 525
16. Scotland 520
17. England 513
18. Cyprus 502
19. Norway 502
20. New Zealand 499
21. Greece 492
22. Thailand 490
23. Portugal 475 24. Iceland 474
25. Iran 429
26. Kuwait 400
Grade Average 529
Math
Grade 8
Rank Nation Score
1. Singapore 643
2. Korea 607
3. Japan 605
4. Hong Kong 588
5. Belgium 565
6. Czech Republic 564
7. Slovak Republic 547
8. Switzerland 545
9. Netherlands 541
10. Slovenia 541
11.Bulgaria 540
12. Austria 539
13. France 538
14. Hungary 537
15. Russian Fed. 535
16. Australia 530
17.Ireland 527
18. Canada 527
19. Belgium 526
20.Sweden 519
21. Thailand 522
22. Israel 522
23. Germany 509
24. New Zealand 508
25. England 506
26. Norway 503
27. Denmark 502
28. United States 500
29. Scotland 498
30. Latvia 493
31. Spain 487
32. Iceland 487
33. Greece 484
34. Romania 482
35. Lithuania 477
36. Cyprus 474
37. Portugal 454
38. Iran 428
39. Kuwait 392
40. Colombia 385
41. South Africa 354
Grade Average 513
Math
Grade 12
Rank Nation Score
1. Netherlands 560
2. Sweden 552
3. Denmark 547
4. Switzerland 540
5. Iceland 534
6. Norway 528
7. France 523
8. New Zealand 522
9. Australia 522
10. Canada 519
11. Austria 518
12. Slovenia 512
13. Germany 495
14. Hungary 483
15. Italy 476
16. Russian Fed. 471
17. Lithuania 469
18. Czech Republic 466
19. United States 461
20. Cyprus 446
21. South Africa 356
Grade Average 500
Science
Grade 4
Rank Nation Score
1. Korea 597
2. Japan 574
3. United States 565
4. Austria 565
5. Australia 562
6. Netherlands 557
7. Czech Republic 557
8. England 551
9. Canada 549
10. Singapore 547
11. Slovenia 546
12. Ireland 539
13. Scotland 536
14. Hong Kong 533
15. Hungary 532
16. New Zealand 531
17. Norway 530
18. Latvia 512
19. Israel 505
20. Iceland 505
21. Greece 497
22. Portugal 480
23. Cyprus 475
24. Thailand 473
25. Iran 416
26. Kuwait 401
Grade Average 524
Science
Grade 8
Rank Nation Score
1. Singapore 607
2. Czech Republic 574
3. Japan 571
4. Korea 565
5. Bulgaria 565
6. Netherlands 560
7. Slovenia 560
8. Austria 558
9. Hungary 554
10. England 552
11. Belgium 550
12. Australia 545
13. Slovak Republic 544
14. Russian Fed. 538
15. Ireland 538
16. Sweden 535
17. United States 534
18. Germany 531
19. Canada 531 20. Norway 527
21. New Zealand 525
22.Thailand 525
23. Israel 524
24. Hong Kong 522
25. Switzerland 522
26. Scotland 517
15 others Grade Average 516
Science
Grade 12
Rank Nation Score
1. Sweden 559
2. Netherlands 558
3. Iceland 549
4. Norway 544
5. Canada 532
6. New Zealand 529
7. Australia 527
8. Switzerland 523
9. Austria 520
10. Slovenia 517
11. Denmark 509
12. Germany 497
13. France 487
14. Czech Republic 487
15. Russian Fed. 481
16. United States 480
17. Italy 475
18. Hungary 471
19. Lithuania 461
20. Cyprus 448
21. South Africa 349
Grade Average 500
For years, people have taken false comfort in the notion that while the performance of all our students may be poor, our strength lies in our top students. Many people believe that our best students perform better than the best students of most other countries. TIMSS shows this notion to be untrue. Note again that many superior countries (especially the Asians) are not included in the reported results.
Grade 12 Top Students
Advanced Math
Rank Nation Score
1. France 557
2. Russian Fed. 542
3. Switzerland 533
4. Australia 525
5. Denmark 522
6. Cyprus 518
7. Lithuania 516
8. Greece 513
9. Sweden 512
10. Canada 509
11. Slovenia 475
12. Italy 474
13. Czech Republic 469
14. Germany 465
15. United States 442
16. Austria 436
Grade Average 501
Advanced Science
Rank Nation Score
1. Norway 581
2. Sweden 573
3. Russian Fed. 545
4. Denmark 534
5. Slovenia 523
6. Germany 522
7. Australia 518
8. Cyprus 494
9. Latvia 488
10. Switzerland 488
11. Greece 486
12. Canada 485
13. France 466
14. Czech Republic 451
15. Austria 435
16. United States 423
Grade Average 501
In 1983, A Nation At Risk urgently recommended reforms in education warning "the United States is under challenge from many quarters". Today we're at greater risk than ever. The Government Education Monopoly continues to imperil our economy by failing miserably at preparing the workforce. Business increasingly looks for talent overseas. The world's greatest concentration of PhD's is in Seoul, Korea and half of Americans can't even find Seoul on a map.
Microsoft India taps Indian programming and engineering skills with 83,000 certifications issued in 1999. We import 107,000 H-1B professionals every year, half of them with PhD's.
Unless we re-tool education, there is a strong likelihood that America will get overtaken in education the way we did in automobiles. Before the 70's our economy was based on the automobile, but a complacent automobile industry failed to make changes. Japanese cars invaded, and canceled our dominance. The resulting outflow of dollars to Japan devastated our economy. Its about to happen again, this time to pay high salaries to well-educated workers overseas.
Doing it Right: One does not need to scurry around trying to devise a plan to extricate ourselves from this mess. The simplest way to improve American education (public, private, and parochial) quickly is to adopt books and teaching methods from countries at the top of the ranking. During ten years of he cultural revolution, South Korea adopted the U.S. System, dumping it when their results nosedived. Several International Baccalaureate schools have gotten dual accreditation from the participating sister country when they met the higher standards required abroad. In our own case, that required an extra hour of instruction each day, and phys-ed in a foreign language. One such government school nicknamed "teacher heaven" was organized by principal Lois Lindahl in Miami, Florida. Her motto is "Children will perform to the level of your expectations".
Sources:
Download the summary TIMSS report in PDF format http://nces.ed.gov/pubs99/1999 081.pdf
Full text and charts of Forgione speech: http://nces.ed.gov/Pressreleas e/science/index.html
See also: http://ed-web3.educ.msu.edu/ne ws/news-briefs/1999/curriculum .htm
Kill the messenger: Dr. Forgione's re-nomination as U.S. Commissioner of Education Statistics was blocked by the Clinton/Gore administration. Forgione is now Superintendent of the Austin Independent School District.
More Info:
Boston College International Study Center originated TIMSS. It has timely updates and more data.
Grandfather Education Report presenting graphs, data, and analysis that tells the stark truth.
This research brought to you by 4Choice, dedicated to School Choice without School Vouchers.
URL: http://4Brevard.com/choice/int ernational-test-scores.htm Last Modified 10/02/2006 14:41:00
©2001 Copying, distribution, reprinting, and linking to this document to promote School Choice is encouraged.
(Message edited by Livernoisyard on September 13, 2007) |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 360
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 11:07 pm: | |
LY,
Thanks for trying. If you bothered to read thoroughly instead of searching for numbers that support your agenda (A school voucher web site, come on!), you'd have noted:
* TIMSS figures you provide are from 1999; my raw numbers are from the 2003 report. A new report is due out 12/08. Let's hope our ranking is even higher.
We both agree K-12 ed needs improvement. Besides resurrecting a generation of the wonderful, dead teachers you admire, what do you suggest to make it all better? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3942
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 11:24 pm: | |
Duh! But those kids who took the TIMSS back then are still out there. Maybe you resemble a few of them. They weren't vaporized out of existence or made better by space aliens...
There's a common tendency by apologists to report some minor "increases" after previous dismal reports as being proof that there's no problem. Or that comparing favorably with the state or national average is something to brag out. The US and Michigan "averages" don't confer any bragging rights. |
Eec
Member
Username: Eec
Post Number: 141
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 8:35 am: | |
Livernoisyard, you've proven several times you're not qualified to debate this. Starting from a position of hating teachers in a debate on education doesn't really make for defensible or intelligent comments.
I suggested two fixes: go back to the system we have funding for, with heavy tracking and exclusion of kids who are very low in ability of have other problems, or fund the current system in which everybody is educated together. Of the two, I think the second is more democratic and preferable, though it's much more expensive. The problems we have stem from the fact that we've mandated lots of expensive changes without raising funding at a rate than can implement them.
And before somebody jumps down my throat with right-wing talking points, I'm aware funding has risen. It just hasn't risen enough to let the schools implement all the things they've been ordered to implement. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 363
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 10:39 am: | |
This about sums up all levels of education here. Thought we could use some levity...
|
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 157
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 9:01 pm: | |
Question, why do many other countries far surpass the US in K-12 education and then all of a sudden do not in College? Is it free market competition? |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 383
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 9:15 pm: | |
Lefty2,
For many other countries high school is like college! These places, like France, filter for college entry, unlike the liberal admissions policies we have here. College abroad can be more rigorous; the equivalent of grad school here. This is why if a French student makes it into the Sorbonne, the govt. pays their way. Some countries recognize not everyone is cut out for college, and there's no shame in it. I don't know about Asia... |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 160
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 9:57 pm: | |
i know if you make it into University of Tokyo, you are almost guaranteed a good job, and once you do make it in, it's not really that hard, the hardest part is getting IN. cram tests, its all on testing. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 385
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 11:08 pm: | |
Same with W. Europe, Lefty. In the UK, you test for A and O level degrees. In France, the test you take at the end of high school; the baccalaureate is notoriously difficult. Many people skip it unless they're on the fast track to college and a good job. |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 120
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 6:09 pm: | |
If I remember correctly, in France you can take the "bacc" exam up to three times, but you have to repeat a year of school to do it. Without the baccalaureate, no university. Americans wouldn't go for that. University tuition is free in many countries, including France (or so I'm told by French friends). Americans haven't gone for that so far. The International Academy in Bloomfield Hills is an International Baccalaureate (IB) school, run by a group of Oakland County school districts. It was named the best HS in the US a couple of years ago, but I understand that it is closing due to lack of funding. Thanks, Legislature. Several local districts are in the process of adding IB programs within regular high schools. The IB curriculum is very specific and demanding, going far beyond standard Advanced Placement courses. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3976
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 10:19 pm: | |
The AP is yet another scam in education. Many (most?) colleges will give credit for an AP grade as low as 3 (out of five). Now, some of the prestige schools (Harvard, etc.) are beginning to demand only a score of 5 due to the lack of scholarship of an AP grade of 3 or 4 earned while in high school. Yet, many US school districts claim bragging rights when their students get those low-grade AP scores.
(Message edited by Livernoisyard on September 18, 2007) |
Eec
Member
Username: Eec
Post Number: 151
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 12:46 pm: | |
Yeah, Livernoisyard! How DARE those high schools brag that their kids are only doing OKAY at college-level work. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4007
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 3:57 pm: | |
YAWN! Ho hum...
Presented solely for the benefit of those still unaware:
An AP of 3 or 4 is not college-level work, but instead more of the same bloated and grossly inflated GPAs. An AP of 3 or 4 will now be rejected at Harvard and other prestige colleges.
It appears that mediocrity should be rewarded by some at DY... |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4206
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:49 pm: | |
Te irony is that they whine that the standardized tests are overemphasized, and then they invalidate the GPA with inflated scores. What do they think the schools will use to decide if a candidate is acceptable?? Their smiles? I know, maybe they can use carbon credits. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 416
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 10:15 pm: | |
"It appears that mediocrity should be rewarded by some at DY..."
Livernoisyard, some at DY reward the mediocrity of your arguments by bothering to take you seriously. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 184
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 10:50 pm: | |
so it redin writin.... social studies? |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 417
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 12:14 am: | |
Lefty2,
It's "reeling and writhing" according to the mock turtle. |
Leland_palmer
Member
Username: Leland_palmer
Post Number: 379
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 12:33 am: | |
If you get a 3 at MSU you may have a prereq waived but most likely you will not receive credit for any classes. A 4 will get you a few credits, but not a full year in that discipline. |
Themax
Member
Username: Themax
Post Number: 841
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 12:53 am: | |
In unionized school district, a kindergarten teacher of 3-year (pick any nonzero figure...) seniority has far more suck and gets paid more than a zero-time physics teacher--probably the most difficult of all areas for finding a competent teacher, by far."
I have never understood the AFT's use of seniority over knowledge of subject matter. These are classroom teachers not line workers, folks. Whose great idea was it to fashion a teachers' union after the UAW?
I got good grades in high school math and science,but I was happy not to take any college math back in the '60's. I can still do most h.s. math and have explained it to students when I substituted. That sub who didn't know any geometry must have had absolutely no pride. I hope s/he didn't have a long-term assignment in geometry in Southfield. Makes me wonder how good that sub would be in most h.s. subjects. Maybe s/he should stick to lower el.
(Message edited by themax on September 22, 2007) |
Eec
Member
Username: Eec
Post Number: 155
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 4:29 pm: | |
Livernoisyard says:
_____
It appears that mediocrity should be rewarded by some at DY...
_____
I promise I'll reward you if your arguments ever rise to the level of mediocrity. "I hate teachers and like to cite made-up numbers to justify my hatred" is not even a mediocre argument. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 420
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 4:45 pm: | |
Nice turn of the screw, Eec. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 193
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 11:10 pm: | |
"reeling and writhing"
nope, unless your referring to someone needing a register to tell them what change to give someone.
Just a phrase a teacher referred to as one school classrooms teaching farming rural kids in the 1800's |
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